Mafia General Discussion
- Thread starter Sigismund
- Start date
Evans
Acclaimed
you're not even the best barrows brother
We created this system to protect section morale
We had a string of games in 2019/20 that were, frankly, completely abysmal. People felt like their time had been wasted, were left feeling frustrated that they’d put so much effort into a game where no matter how well they played, they could have it all ripped away from them by bullshit they had no control over or couldn’t foresee. This then led to toxicity and the people that hosted these games also feeling like shit.
This combined with the fact that some people would feel insulted just by them being asked to get their setup checked by someone else.
So we created ranked/unranked combined with a “trusted host” list. If people get themselves on this list their games are ranked, if people are not on the list want their game to be ranked then that’s easy, just get it checked by somebody on this list (and implement feedback obviously). If you don’t want to get it checked then you can host whatever game you want using whatever setup you want, and people can go into knowing that it’s just for fun and to not get emotionally invested as there’s potential for something to fuck up.
Like no offence but your games (from what I hear) have a strong implementation of RNG roles and the like. That’s just too swingy and not conducive to being ranked in a competitive environment. RNG is complete luck.
Similar to when every player has 5 roles and the like. It’s just button bashing and there’s far too many things going on for people to be able to foresee shit or strategise or play around.
I understand these games are popular and you guys like them. That’s fine. But we honestly have no interest in including them in our rankings system. And that’s all it is. It’s a rankings system created by us WF folk for ourselves and anybody else that wants to play in our games. If you want your own version then you are more than free to make one because at the end of the day our section and yours clearly have completely different philosophies on what mafia is and will never agree. Trying to change the way we want to do things is pointless, which is why creating a different subsection is probably for the best.
Shepard
Preeminent
If the issue is calling them unranked then why not just call it a SRM/experimental section instead, if that's the style of game that is typically unranked.
We've all played mafia for too long (2011 for me) and naturally we all have preferences for the types of game we want to play. There's nothing to say that one way is better than another or anything like that, but I personally do prefer the games which would fall under a ranked description. But then my idea role is vanilla town and I wouldn't want to touch anything that had cult elements, for instance. It's more that I'm at the stage now where I can only play at most a handful of games a year. I'd feel happier signing up to ones that have been checked and are balanced in a way I prefer.
I followed your batman game Aries and while I can see the appeal, I also know I wouldn't have enjoyed playing in a game with so many abilities firing off.
I'm sure that there are some people who have the opposite reaction to me and would lose motivation to play if they drew vanilla, so if there's an audience here that want to play those games having a section for it then go for it imo. If it does something like Ekkos game and brings in more players who aren't usually playing on the site that seems like a win.
I do think if you were going to run a SRM game here you'd probably have to adjust for player numbers more than on a WG for instance. Just looking at the list of players you could probably class as "regular" now I'd wager maybe half of those wouldn't be as interested in playing a SRM game.
We've all played mafia for too long (2011 for me) and naturally we all have preferences for the types of game we want to play. There's nothing to say that one way is better than another or anything like that, but I personally do prefer the games which would fall under a ranked description. But then my idea role is vanilla town and I wouldn't want to touch anything that had cult elements, for instance. It's more that I'm at the stage now where I can only play at most a handful of games a year. I'd feel happier signing up to ones that have been checked and are balanced in a way I prefer.
I followed your batman game Aries and while I can see the appeal, I also know I wouldn't have enjoyed playing in a game with so many abilities firing off.
I'm sure that there are some people who have the opposite reaction to me and would lose motivation to play if they drew vanilla, so if there's an audience here that want to play those games having a section for it then go for it imo. If it does something like Ekkos game and brings in more players who aren't usually playing on the site that seems like a win.
I do think if you were going to run a SRM game here you'd probably have to adjust for player numbers more than on a WG for instance. Just looking at the list of players you could probably class as "regular" now I'd wager maybe half of those wouldn't be as interested in playing a SRM game.
Aries
Illustrious
I've been advocating for separate sub sections since I returned because it's very apparent to everyone you want things to be done a certain way, I don't expect you or anyone to really compromise if you've done things since x year but the same way you want us to respect your communities boundaries you should also give that respect to NF/wg Mafia communities boundaries who want to play these types of games and make it count.
SRM games can be just as competitive as a vanilla game but I can see you and others have made up your mind about these types of games. Will be a waste of my time to try to argue further on that font, will just say agree to disagree
I honestly don't really care who signs up and who doesn't just aslong as people have more than one option to play a game and the host can make their games matter. Keep your ranking system in your section and continue updating it, sigis and I will be doing a separate ranking system for the role madness/ super role madness games the way it was done on Fanverse. Like I said before, if want to give these games a shot then cool if not then that's fine. Nobodies feelings are being hurt for not liking something.
Excellent, seems like case closed
Aries
Illustrious
I honestly didn't think it was still going on? Thought the matter was closed like 2 days ago when I came back and started advocating separate sections for your types of games and ours. Regardless I think majority of us are in agreement in this
Rej
Preeminent
I know back in Oro Jackson where I learned about mafia, a SRM occured once per year, and it was a mega blast with 50 players participating. Shit became less fun, after everyone tried to regularize that in the past years.
Always loved the gamesize of 15-21 players, which is my most comfortable gamesize. But going overboard that on a regular basis made me uncomfortable as a player.
As for myself, I know hosting these can be very appealing. I had the big dream of hosting a 32 player sized hololive games annualy or biannualy until I completed a trilogy. But I hanged it on a nail, because there were just too many people who wanted to host SRM games and it was quite demotivating seeing so many big games being hosted back to back.
It is greed, greed feeds the creativity and vice versa, and now people crash into endless debates about game culture.
The best option is just to host small/regular (15-21) players, sometimes even smaller, have quick games and quickly take turns, so every host gets their turn throughout a year. And once you achieve such a calm and balanced standard you can talk about "event games" or "SRM".
Such a calm state of the section is automatically attracting more regular players, than throwing newbies into a SRM and have players burn out themselves. And most importantly - that state attracts more new hosts.
Always loved the gamesize of 15-21 players, which is my most comfortable gamesize. But going overboard that on a regular basis made me uncomfortable as a player.
As for myself, I know hosting these can be very appealing. I had the big dream of hosting a 32 player sized hololive games annualy or biannualy until I completed a trilogy. But I hanged it on a nail, because there were just too many people who wanted to host SRM games and it was quite demotivating seeing so many big games being hosted back to back.
It is greed, greed feeds the creativity and vice versa, and now people crash into endless debates about game culture.
The best option is just to host small/regular (15-21) players, sometimes even smaller, have quick games and quickly take turns, so every host gets their turn throughout a year. And once you achieve such a calm and balanced standard you can talk about "event games" or "SRM".
Such a calm state of the section is automatically attracting more regular players, than throwing newbies into a SRM and have players burn out themselves. And most importantly - that state attracts more new hosts.
Magic
Resplendent
why do these games not count? i really don't get why you guys keep saying they don't count lol. the ladder objectively means nothing and that's the only thing that separates the two type of games.
a game can go to lylo with a F3 finish, which means it was competitive between town and mafia but it doesn't mean it was balanced nor the ending the game should have gone to if one side outplayed the other.
Magic
Resplendent
i agree with all of this too. regular medium sized games means there can be a rotation in the player list and helps prevent burnout. when games keep firing and everyone is playing people will eventually feel the effects of how much time of theirs is being consumed.
we did the same thing btw. we had christmas mafia where like 30-40ish players would show up. also had a Wire game with 40 people. while a spectacle and one infrequently, the games themselves were crapshoots until a bunch of people died as there's way too many people and shit going on.
yeah, i thought that's why this was happening
i really think WS cats are being misread here tbqh
preferring a certain game and counting it has high effort does not mean unranked games are unvalued. they aren't, it's just two different styles and preferences here. if their ranking system is making NF players feel devalued, i frankly have no way to address that aside from having y'all make an screed upon system that feels equal in players eyes and however NF dudes wanna to about that in the unranked section is up to them
but i really don't think WS cats preferences have anything to do with thinking other systems and games are beneath them. they have a specific vetting process for hosts they trust and be considered judges over their ranked games. it really isn't something that can be changed as it's purely subjective customs between both crowds. i also want to remind you that vetted hosts/respected ones =/= other people can't host ranked games, just that as a host you won't be considered vetted immediately; it's a process and community trust thing. i also advise if it feels unwelcoming to timid hosts that you ask for guidance on the current ranked system from vet WS players--gramma would be happy to help time pointers and clarify what is expected for first time hosts using their ranking system for instance (he was patient with me during elden ring)
for NFers, try working on a cohesive system and what things are part of unranked criteria. for instance starting asking each other what precisely do you guys want out of these games? what is important first and foremost--enjoying and riding the waves and being able to ability spam? what do our experienced players and hosts need to be considered vetted in this subsection? what reward system do you guys want to make? when and how will people be rewarded? what level of engagement from players do you want? (if people sign up and don't post will everyone agree to be strict over this and view it as disrespect or do you guys want leeway?)
etc etc
start asking yourselves questions 1. what and 2. how, draft a vision
i really think WS cats are being misread here tbqh
preferring a certain game and counting it has high effort does not mean unranked games are unvalued. they aren't, it's just two different styles and preferences here. if their ranking system is making NF players feel devalued, i frankly have no way to address that aside from having y'all make an screed upon system that feels equal in players eyes and however NF dudes wanna to about that in the unranked section is up to them
but i really don't think WS cats preferences have anything to do with thinking other systems and games are beneath them. they have a specific vetting process for hosts they trust and be considered judges over their ranked games. it really isn't something that can be changed as it's purely subjective customs between both crowds. i also want to remind you that vetted hosts/respected ones =/= other people can't host ranked games, just that as a host you won't be considered vetted immediately; it's a process and community trust thing. i also advise if it feels unwelcoming to timid hosts that you ask for guidance on the current ranked system from vet WS players--gramma would be happy to help time pointers and clarify what is expected for first time hosts using their ranking system for instance (he was patient with me during elden ring)
for NFers, try working on a cohesive system and what things are part of unranked criteria. for instance starting asking each other what precisely do you guys want out of these games? what is important first and foremost--enjoying and riding the waves and being able to ability spam? what do our experienced players and hosts need to be considered vetted in this subsection? what reward system do you guys want to make? when and how will people be rewarded? what level of engagement from players do you want? (if people sign up and don't post will everyone agree to be strict over this and view it as disrespect or do you guys want leeway?)
etc etc
start asking yourselves questions 1. what and 2. how, draft a vision
fucking hate goddamn phone posting smh
also there's a pretty common pattern with NF peeps where soured feelings and wasted effort is almost a guaranteed thing in either ranked or unranked and not just OLF specific. imma leave this specific discussion to ultra or pass it to someone else if he doesn't wanna touch it but it's an issue that will have to be addressed amount this particular crowd and see what can be done to diminish chances of bad feelings toward the end of the game
An excellent post - I will gladly help out if needed
Aries
Illustrious
I don't see why taking out unranked name and just letting those game types have their own section is that big of a deal. Just call it standard games and alternative games. Poyser keeps his ranking system as is, hosts need to double check their work by vets before being allowed in their pool. Alternative will be for peeps that want to do their own thing. You don't need your games checked but the option is open if you are a newer host and need help. We (sigis and myself) will likely have a different criteria on how we rank things.
I think it's the easiest solution that doesn't really alienate one community
I think it's the easiest solution that doesn't really alienate one community
The section exists now, what is your point