Mafia General Discussion
- Thread starter Sigismund
- Start date
I remember reading this very post - obviously individuals will deviate somewhat but it’s a great starting point
Magic
Resplendent
i think you might have meant the second post, but the one you quoted i just typed that post up now lol.
generally what i've said has been consistent for years so it's likely similar to what i said in the past. i saw other posts in the thread and i said similar things directed at smark after one of his games.
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Magic
Resplendent
ay @Smarkslayer ;
try making your games not feel like this. i said it at another point in the scum qt too, but it honestly feels like you intend for your games to go through a lot of phases/people to survive a lot of shit.
on the town side of things it's sort of obvious:
1) we had 3 players that could survive shots, two full on bulletproofs. as far as im aware, town didn't have any strongman this game to deal with that and while it's fine wanting town to have to resort to lynches to remove mafia it still should be possible to get rid of them at night. one player, regardless of the size of the scum team, being able to survive night with passive abilities is typically enough then whatever additional protective roles you feel is necessary(bg/busdriver/etc) depending on how many town killing roles are present+nontown killing roles.
2) the mayor shot by itself wasn't excessive, contrary to the bitch fest thrown(which was mostly due to the assumptions there was a lynchproof/people reliving the nightmare of last game lol), but along with point 1 it becomes excessive. if you can't kill half the scum at night, there should be literally no hindrance in removing them during day.
for both of these points, town needs to either waste a lynch and then either waste a shot on confirmed scum or another lynch to remove scum. feels like 2 steps back just to make 1 step forward.
3) town had 3 roles that could catch the killer, but only if the ninja died early enough. the ninja never died, making the watcher(who was also the jailkeeper tbf), retep's role, and the tracker somewhat useless. i know there's other utilities for these roles, but the main one is usually catching the killer.
there's some other minor things, but most of town already said them so no need to be redundant.
now for the scum side of things, since people in this section completely lose perspective when they lose games.
1) you had zero vanille townies. this is makes me mad just saying it because it honestly is just that annoying. the game should be settled by play and not roles, like big man was saying in the dead qt, and by not having a single VT it doesn't really feel like that's what you're going for. On top of that, you're completely removing VT as a fake claim for scum(more on that later :side:). Everyone had a power role, some people multiple power roles, and it was just excessive. as again others pointed out, the more roles you put in the harder it is to actually balance as the game progressively gets more swingy.
2) scum had no ability to fake claim. people gave me shit for my fake claim, particularly my entire scum team @Odogaron ; @Jam ; etc :mj2)
yes i was annoyed at that point in time, but i didn't just do that claim because i was mad. i can't claim VT because there are no VTs in the game and that's crystal clear. I have to have a built in reason to explain why ive been alive so long/why mafia will continue not killing me(the 1x BP), i can't claim something that has me doing nightly actions in case bobby tries checking me+there's only so many things left that have night actions that weren't already claimed. on top of that, many people had dual roles, again making it harder to fake. it can be hard coming up with one role that fits the setup, it's incredibly hard to make two fit the setup that aren't already overlapping to a massive degree AND fits the theme and a character in a way.
people said i pretty much claimed what alco did. well what else was there realistically? a protection role with so many already in the game was a no go. i didn't have enough theme knowledge to pull a random ass role out of my ass that somehow connects to another character(like many of the town roles do, which was also problematic). i obviously couldn't claim priest because people knew that would be the scum priest.
your games are heavily themed based. there's nothing wrong with that until it becomes hard to play if you don't know the theme well enough. it's hard to claim in your games because the roles are so linked to theme and characters linked to one another it's hard to come up with some random ass claim that actually fits.
if i was the scum roletracker, for example, that would at least me to claim something that could be believable(although scum roletracker/rolecop watcher are common enough that you still need more variety than that these days :lol). it might not fit perfectly with the character/theme, but it allows us to actually something that won't get immediately figured out.
3) due to the roles being heavily linked to theme and characters linked to one another, a shit ton of easy confirmations result.
buffy? confirmed. dawn was obviously confirmed via role. then alco got confirmed because he got lucky and became the backup to buffy. I want you to understand that we made a good play executing the best role in the game and essentially got punished for it by having another player get confirmed by it as a result+the role didn't even disappear. 2 steps back(and we didn't even move a step forward).
lc/gambit getting confirmed due to buffy dying. 3 steps back.
buffy dying meant cp was even more wide open to win the game and eventually forced us, mafia, to have to go over the top to make sure that didn't happen and risk exposing ourselves. 4 steps back.
retep was also confirmed because of the cp thing and in all honesty that thing didn't even need to happen at all, you essentially had a checkpoint to confirm a town player. 5 steps back.
all this because we executed the best role in the game. that's a bit much.
then there's the stump too who is a voice for town post-death.
you cant have confirmed town around towards the end of the game as they can literally cost you the game because you can't lynch them, which is why we literally just kept picking them off one by one. that is what you have to do, but again as big man said in the dead qt you can only do this so much with one night kill and this doesn't even include the players that super strongly read as town due to their play.
4) like many people have said hurting town's ability to lynch is hurting their best weapon in the game. likewise, hurting mafia's ability to kill does the same. two PGOs, multiple BGs, a revive(another confirm since the reviver got confirmed), jailkeeper, etc. there weren't many saves, but our kills were pretty unorthodox in general which helped, but the risk was apparent and in your first game we didn't get a kill off the first 2 nights because of stuff like this.
5) no SK and no full vig.
@CROFT ; mentioned how mafia is a numbers and timing game. i didn't outright agree with her about this, but i also don't disagree about the numbers thing. the thing is, there hasn't been a serial killer in either of your games even though they're both big in size. as mafia i have said NUMEROUS times to leave the serial killer or vig alive even if it puts us at risk because the chance of removing town is typically greater+it reduces the phases and numbers in general. you want this as scum, it helps a lot. this has not been the case in your game where there's typically one kill a night, which prolongs the game forever.
a serial killer is meant to even the playing field for both alignments, at least that's how i've always seen it. people make them overpowered for ridiculous ass reasons, but they're always meant to be at a disadvantage(which is what makes their wins special, not when they're broken to the point that they're a one man army). tangent aside, if town is dominating then SK kills townies(for their own self interest obviously as they need mafia to be doing well enough they're not looked at and if town dominates they'll get POE'd) and if mafia dominating then they pretty much are forced to help town remove mafia so they don't lose to mafia themselves. cp was an indy for himself and skybox was a survivor so he could choose(and doesn't have to help even the playing field).
lastly, this is more personal and i didn't want to make a comment during the game for obvious reasons, but the games going forever felt like a huge detriment to me in both games as explaining why im alive during day 10 isn't always a breeze. there's no way to even make it end quicker due to the way you set up your games. again it just feels like they're intentionally meant to go long and that doesn't really create a fair playing field.
try making your games not feel like this. i said it at another point in the scum qt too, but it honestly feels like you intend for your games to go through a lot of phases/people to survive a lot of shit.
on the town side of things it's sort of obvious:
1) we had 3 players that could survive shots, two full on bulletproofs. as far as im aware, town didn't have any strongman this game to deal with that and while it's fine wanting town to have to resort to lynches to remove mafia it still should be possible to get rid of them at night. one player, regardless of the size of the scum team, being able to survive night with passive abilities is typically enough then whatever additional protective roles you feel is necessary(bg/busdriver/etc) depending on how many town killing roles are present+nontown killing roles.
2) the mayor shot by itself wasn't excessive, contrary to the bitch fest thrown(which was mostly due to the assumptions there was a lynchproof/people reliving the nightmare of last game lol), but along with point 1 it becomes excessive. if you can't kill half the scum at night, there should be literally no hindrance in removing them during day.
for both of these points, town needs to either waste a lynch and then either waste a shot on confirmed scum or another lynch to remove scum. feels like 2 steps back just to make 1 step forward.
3) town had 3 roles that could catch the killer, but only if the ninja died early enough. the ninja never died, making the watcher(who was also the jailkeeper tbf), retep's role, and the tracker somewhat useless. i know there's other utilities for these roles, but the main one is usually catching the killer.
there's some other minor things, but most of town already said them so no need to be redundant.
now for the scum side of things, since people in this section completely lose perspective when they lose games.
1) you had zero vanille townies. this is makes me mad just saying it because it honestly is just that annoying. the game should be settled by play and not roles, like big man was saying in the dead qt, and by not having a single VT it doesn't really feel like that's what you're going for. On top of that, you're completely removing VT as a fake claim for scum(more on that later :side:). Everyone had a power role, some people multiple power roles, and it was just excessive. as again others pointed out, the more roles you put in the harder it is to actually balance as the game progressively gets more swingy.
2) scum had no ability to fake claim. people gave me shit for my fake claim, particularly my entire scum team @Odogaron ; @Jam ; etc :mj2)
yes i was annoyed at that point in time, but i didn't just do that claim because i was mad. i can't claim VT because there are no VTs in the game and that's crystal clear. I have to have a built in reason to explain why ive been alive so long/why mafia will continue not killing me(the 1x BP), i can't claim something that has me doing nightly actions in case bobby tries checking me+there's only so many things left that have night actions that weren't already claimed. on top of that, many people had dual roles, again making it harder to fake. it can be hard coming up with one role that fits the setup, it's incredibly hard to make two fit the setup that aren't already overlapping to a massive degree AND fits the theme and a character in a way.
people said i pretty much claimed what alco did. well what else was there realistically? a protection role with so many already in the game was a no go. i didn't have enough theme knowledge to pull a random ass role out of my ass that somehow connects to another character(like many of the town roles do, which was also problematic). i obviously couldn't claim priest because people knew that would be the scum priest.
your games are heavily themed based. there's nothing wrong with that until it becomes hard to play if you don't know the theme well enough. it's hard to claim in your games because the roles are so linked to theme and characters linked to one another it's hard to come up with some random ass claim that actually fits.
if i was the scum roletracker, for example, that would at least me to claim something that could be believable(although scum roletracker/rolecop watcher are common enough that you still need more variety than that these days :lol). it might not fit perfectly with the character/theme, but it allows us to actually something that won't get immediately figured out.
3) due to the roles being heavily linked to theme and characters linked to one another, a shit ton of easy confirmations result.
buffy? confirmed. dawn was obviously confirmed via role. then alco got confirmed because he got lucky and became the backup to buffy. I want you to understand that we made a good play executing the best role in the game and essentially got punished for it by having another player get confirmed by it as a result+the role didn't even disappear. 2 steps back(and we didn't even move a step forward).
lc/gambit getting confirmed due to buffy dying. 3 steps back.
buffy dying meant cp was even more wide open to win the game and eventually forced us, mafia, to have to go over the top to make sure that didn't happen and risk exposing ourselves. 4 steps back.
retep was also confirmed because of the cp thing and in all honesty that thing didn't even need to happen at all, you essentially had a checkpoint to confirm a town player. 5 steps back.
all this because we executed the best role in the game. that's a bit much.
then there's the stump too who is a voice for town post-death.
you cant have confirmed town around towards the end of the game as they can literally cost you the game because you can't lynch them, which is why we literally just kept picking them off one by one. that is what you have to do, but again as big man said in the dead qt you can only do this so much with one night kill and this doesn't even include the players that super strongly read as town due to their play.
4) like many people have said hurting town's ability to lynch is hurting their best weapon in the game. likewise, hurting mafia's ability to kill does the same. two PGOs, multiple BGs, a revive(another confirm since the reviver got confirmed), jailkeeper, etc. there weren't many saves, but our kills were pretty unorthodox in general which helped, but the risk was apparent and in your first game we didn't get a kill off the first 2 nights because of stuff like this.
5) no SK and no full vig.
@CROFT ; mentioned how mafia is a numbers and timing game. i didn't outright agree with her about this, but i also don't disagree about the numbers thing. the thing is, there hasn't been a serial killer in either of your games even though they're both big in size. as mafia i have said NUMEROUS times to leave the serial killer or vig alive even if it puts us at risk because the chance of removing town is typically greater+it reduces the phases and numbers in general. you want this as scum, it helps a lot. this has not been the case in your game where there's typically one kill a night, which prolongs the game forever.
a serial killer is meant to even the playing field for both alignments, at least that's how i've always seen it. people make them overpowered for ridiculous ass reasons, but they're always meant to be at a disadvantage(which is what makes their wins special, not when they're broken to the point that they're a one man army). tangent aside, if town is dominating then SK kills townies(for their own self interest obviously as they need mafia to be doing well enough they're not looked at and if town dominates they'll get POE'd) and if mafia dominating then they pretty much are forced to help town remove mafia so they don't lose to mafia themselves. cp was an indy for himself and skybox was a survivor so he could choose(and doesn't have to help even the playing field).
lastly, this is more personal and i didn't want to make a comment during the game for obvious reasons, but the games going forever felt like a huge detriment to me in both games as explaining why im alive during day 10 isn't always a breeze. there's no way to even make it end quicker due to the way you set up your games. again it just feels like they're intentionally meant to go long and that doesn't really create a fair playing field.
it was this post with similar principles.
Mashiro Blue
Illustrious
That's an appealing proposal waifubro. If you only watch S1 you won't see Nino greatness xd you'll see Miku though.
Have you watched To Love Ru?
I read the manga - wasn't a fan, but I really like the singer of some of the OPs or EDs (ray I think she was called).
Mashiro Blue
Illustrious
A little over 200 excluding movies and OVAs/ONAs.
With those 212. I'll probably take 8 months to watch 100 anime if I watch it at a respectable pace.
Mashiro Blue
Illustrious
It's pretty trashy the first part (at least in anime).
The sequel To Love Ru Darkness is of higher quality. I mean character development and an actual plot (albeit a weak one), not those... scenes.
Let me sleep over this proposal waifubro. Maybe as a sub.
I read quite a bit of that manga too, but dropped off I dunno how far through.
A sub would be perfect waifubro - no worries if not though. I do plan to get to Quintuplets by the summer anyhow.
T-Pein™
The Nexus
- Pronouns
- They/Them
This aint the way....
kinda wanna do a rewatch of lie in april tbh
which ones?
Fanverse doesn't allow cross forum advertising, and they eve have built-in filters against mentioning other forums such as this one (lol).
T-Pein™
The Nexus
- Pronouns
- They/Them
that forum at one point was cross banning anyone that joined this one and was part of that one.
Very Hostile!
T-Pein™
The Nexus
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Worstgen does not allow posting links to other forums.
Fanverse does not allow mentioning or posting links to other forums.
censors them in PM too.
Tempest
Leprous Monarch
Smark doesn't allow any kind of promotion for other forumsI wonder is WrestlingSmarks is hostile of friendly to this forum.
