Misconceptions about VS. Debating

[Astaro]

I didn't want to say anything... but you need to actually give reasons for the misconceptions. You didn't really do anything here but complain about things you don't like.
We all did it here and you gotta do it too.

I did. The Toon Force and Concepts argument easily fall under NLF and I went further with my issue with the Concepts argument with the example of Bleach’s Soul King being compared to characters far stronger just because he made life and death happen.

Explained the next one about using hyperbole well enough as well as the opposite extreme of disregarding something as hyperbole even if it includes feats.

Hypocrisy and double standards speaks for itself and needs no explanation

 

[Stocking Anarchy]

A calc does not replace a feat, and should be used to show how impressive a feat is (not to inflate something or downplay something). Multiple people calcing the same feat to have results roughly in the same area, even if the energy result varies by even orders of magnitude would show that it's impressive. If an earthquake calc is done on three sites by three calcs, with yields in the megatons, gigatons and petatons depending on the methods used would all show this feat is impressive.

This also may just be how I feel about it, but I also feel that levels of energy would not be restricted by their yield to the DC scale (for instance, a 900 kiloton explosion would be well past town level).

Also on a similar note, being unquantifiable is not the same as being unimpressive.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

I did. The Toon Force and Concepts argument easily fall under NLF and I went further with my issue with the Concepts argument with the example of Bleach’s Soul King being compared to characters far stronger just because he made life and death happen.

Explained the next one about using hyperbole well enough as well as the opposite extreme of disregarding something as hyperbole even if it includes feats.

Hypocrisy and double standards speaks for itself and needs no explanation

No, you went for extremely simple reasoning at best and barely anything at worst.
You need to actually EXPLAIN the reason, not just say it as otherwise it might as well be in the Circus Thread.
It's meant to TEACH people about why the Misconceptions are wrong, not just say that the Misconceptions suck.

 

[xenos5]

Death of the Author exists for a reason. Some people will take a random off-hand statement a creator made about their series as if it was literally the gospel no matter how little the source material itself supports it. Or even worse some people will even purposefully ask creators about questions pertaining to power levels/power scaling as if they are supposed to give two shits about the hobby that is VS Debating when no good author does (or ever should) have that specifically in mind whey are making their story.

Example: the random statement from the Ben 10 creator about Alien X destroying a multiverse in three thoughts (or some shit like that iirc).

The Source Material always takes precedence. And if nothing in the source material supports an author's statement discarding that statement is always fair game.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

Death of the Author exists for a reason. Some people will take a random off-hand statement a creator made about their series as if it was literally the gospel no matter how little the source material itself supports it. Or even worse some people will even purposefully ask creators about questions pertaining to power levels/power scaling as if they are supposed to give two shits about the hobby that is VS Debating when no good author does (or ever should) have that specifically in mind whey are making their story.

Example: the random statement from the Ben 10 creator about Alien X destroying a multiverse in three thoughts (or some shit like that iirc).

The Source Material always takes precedence. And if nothing in the source material supports an author's statement discarding that statement is always fair game.

Just want to note that the Alien X example is extremely funny because DJW later straight up said he didn't remember saying that at all and that Alien X can only affect one universe at a time so lol


I do value word of god a lot more than most people here I think, but it always has to be weighed against...everything else

eg, there are conflicting statements even from the same sources about whether Transformers' cosmology is infinite, but it is vastly more consistent for it to be stated to be so, and the finite statements are usually missing a lot of context

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Death of the Author exists for a reason. Some people will take a random off-hand statement a creator made about their series as if it was literally the gospel no matter how little the source material itself supports it. Or even worse some people will even purposefully ask creators about questions pertaining to power levels/power scaling as if they are supposed to give two shits about the hobby that is VS Debating when no good author does (or ever should) have that specifically in mind whey are making their story.

Example: the random statement from the Ben 10 creator about Alien X destroying a multiverse in three thoughts (or some shit like that iirc).

The Source Material always takes precedence. And if nothing in the source material supports an author's statement discarding that statement is always fair game.

I actually plan on tackling this tomorrow because Death Of An Author is something that needs to be addressed as well as Word Of God and the real problem is that it's on a case by case basis, not that one gets onus over another(Especially when it's just trying to ignore something obvious or asking authors shit that they haven't thought of the story itself and only comes out afterwards with nothing leading towards it).

 

[xenos5]

I actually plan on tackling this tomorrow because Death Of An Author is something that needs to be addressed as well as Word Of God and the real problem is that it's on a case by case basis, not that one gets onus over another(Especially when it's just trying to ignore something obvious or asking authors shit that they haven't thought of the story itself and only comes out afterwards with nothing leading towards it).

Yeah, there is a degree of nuance definitely. Another thing i'd add is the issue of who has the authority to give WoG to begin with. Only the main creator (though there are works where it's collaborative enough you can't even say there is only one main creator) or anyone who contributes to the work in any capacity?

I can't even remember what was claimed. But I remember hearing people were using shit Murata was saying during drawing streams as evidence for VS Debates. ONE is obviously the original creator, and Murata does the art for the manga adaptation of the webcomic. So regardless of what he's claiming you'd have to question is Murata really in a position to give WoG in the first place?

People can claim that MAYBE behind the scenes Murata is actually very involved with the manga's writing process and not just drawing what ONE dictates to him (that would explain some of the major divergences between the manga and the webcomic as of late. The manga has became style over substance to the point I actually dropped it) but it's not really in his job description and ONE could just as well want to make the manga different so it's its own flavor distinct from the webcomic.

It's a complex issue but it definitely has to be said that the further away from the original creator you get the more skepticism any statement has to be taken with. Guidebooks fitting into a similar category as a secondary source often not written by the original author just created by the same company and designed to further interest in a series.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Yeah, there is a degree of nuance definitely. Another thing i'd add is the issue of who has the authority to give WoG to begin with. Only the main creator (though there are works where it's collaborative enough you can't even say there is only one main creator) or anyone who contributes to the work in any capacity?

I can't even remember what was claimed. But I remember hearing people were using shit Murata was saying during drawing streams as evidence for VS Debates. ONE is obviously the original creator, and Murata does the art for the manga adaptation of the webcomic. So regardless of what he's claiming you'd have to question is Murata really in a position to give WoG in the first place?

People can claim that MAYBE behind the scenes Murata is actually very involved with the manga's writing process and not just drawing what ONE dictates to him (that would explain some of the major divergences between the manga and the webcomic as of late. The manga has became style over substance to the point I actually dropped it) but it's not really in his job description and ONE could just as well want to make the manga different so it's its own flavor distinct from the webcomic.

It's a complex issue but it definitely has to be said that the further away from the original creator you get the more skepticism any statement has to be taken with. Guidebooks fitting into a similar category as a secondary source often not written by the original author just created by the same company and designed to further interest in a series.

Of course and like I said before, I will ultimately tackle it tomorrow like I did with the Opening Post.
But to primarily get it out of the way, WoG primarily matters for the Creator in charge unless the lower rung also got permission from the creator and it's clarified in another work.
We can't just immediately agree on something if there is no basis for it in the story(Like how we have VFX Artists state that Shang Chi = Pre-IW Hulk and Thor and same for Namor) or it's clearly there because the author wants to score brownie points(Like with Straybow and Worm and J.K. Rowling as a whole), either it comes from the Creator and the story allows it to be the case(Like a missing puzzle piece that was obviously left hanging in the story or is pretty obvious in hindsight like Ichibei blotting out Old Zangetsu's name way back in the Substitute Shinigami Arc) or the Creator states it and then adds it in a different part of the same branching storyline or adaptation(like how we get the Old Gotei 13 Captain illustrations in the Bleach: TYBW Anime or ultimately most of the changes in said anime due to Kubo working on it).

Guidebooks are exactly the same way and also depend if the Creator had a major hand in it or even a major influence and in most cases... they aren't.

 

[xenos5]

Of course and like I said before, I will ultimately tackle it tomorrow like I did with the Opening Post.
But to primarily get it out of the way, WoG primarily matters for the Creator in charge unless the lower rung also got permission from the creator and it's clarified in another work.
We can't just immediately agree on something if there is no basis for it in the story(Like how we have VFX Artists state that Shang Chi = Pre-IW Hulk and Thor and same for Namor) or it's clearly there because the author wants to score brownie points(Like with Straybow and Worm and J.K. Rowling as a whole), either it comes from the Creator and the story allows it to be the case(Like a missing puzzle piece that was obviously left hanging in the story or is pretty obvious in hindsight like Ichibei blotting out Old Zangetsu's name way back in the Substitute Shinigami Arc) or the Creator states it and then adds it in a different part of the same branching storyline or adaptation(like how we get the Old Gotei 13 Captain illustrations in the Bleach: TYBW Anime or ultimately most of the changes in said anime due to Kubo working on it).

Guidebooks are exactly the same way and also depend if the Creator had a major hand in it or even a major influence and in most cases... they aren't.

With Shang Chi there is absolutely nothing supporting it, definitely. And even with Namor specifically where a character in the movie also make a comparison between Namor and Hulk. It's hard to judge how accurate that comparison really is when it's mainly just one guy who never fought or even really met the Hulk before (M'Baku) saying Namor is hulk level from just a brief skirmish where he seems way too outclassed to even be able to properly judge how outclassed he was.

But yeah I can't imagine VFX artists are actually in the writer's room, even. So their "WoG" is especially shaky when they're likely just getting dictated the bare minimum necessary to get across the effects that need to be made.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

With Shang Chi there is absolutely nothing supporting it, definitely. And even with Namor specifically where a character in the movie also make a comparison between Namor and Hulk. It's hard to judge how accurate that comparison really is when it's mainly just one guy who never fought or even really met the Hulk before (M'Baku) saying Namor is hulk level from just a brief skirmish where he seems way outclassed to even be able to properly judge how outclassed he was.

Wait, how the fuck some random ass character that has never fought the Hulk or even know his maximum believes Namor can fight onpar with him?
Is this seriously how Marvel writes shit these days?

 

[xenos5]

Wait, how the fuck some random ass character that has never fought the Hulk or even know his maximum believes Namor can fight on par with him?
Is this seriously how Marvel writes shit these days?

Yeah, it felt like a weird statement especially coming from the Wakandan who we mostly see as the furthest from Wakanda's high-tech society (him being more traditionalist/attuned with nature wearing animal skin pelts and shit). In the skirmish all he does is try to attack Namor, his weapon gets effortlessly snapped apart, and he gets punched into a small building (but miraculously he doesn't have a hole punched through him or even broken ribs, only his flimsy armor broke).

The one thing I appreciated was Namor having to be nerfed by exploiting a de-hydration weakness for Shuri to even stand a fraction of a chance. But I definitely felt there were some issues with properly establishing Namor's power where they had to make him be able to singlehandedly dismantle Wakanda but also not kill certain important characters in the process (even though he showed perfectly willing to kill when he killed Shuri's mom).

 

[Masterblack06]

Arguing Muh Concepts like it’s a be-all, end-all to any argument because a character controls concepts or is conceptual is also pretty wank. Ex. Bleach’s Soul King created the concepts of life and death, so he’s a conceptual existence on the level of DC’s Death of the Endless.

this also falls under the concept of hax that i made earlier.

for example
Shinrabanshoman can fuck around with time
this means fuck all to someone like Dialga who can just halt time shenanigans whenever he fucking feels like and is able to dick around with time even with Arceus present

 

[GregSteve]

Being Immortal means the character can't lose or stalemates is another common one I see

 

[Masterblack06]

Being Immortal means the character can't lose or stalemates is another common one I see

yeah that one never makes sense to me. how do you not lose or stalemate when you've been reduced to a punching bag

 

[OtherGalaxy]

I saw someone say recently Yhwach would beat GER because while trapped in death loop he can just wait until Giorno dies of old age

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Being Immortal means the character can't lose or stalemates is another common one I see

I said it to Astaro and I'll say it to you:
You gotta give examples my man and why it's bad.
It may be simple as hell to us, but not to the people who constantly use these misconceptions.

 

[GregSteve]

I said it to Astaro and I'll say it to you:
You gotta give examples my man and why it's bad.
It may be simple as hell to us, but not to the people who constantly use these misconceptions.

My bad didn't read through

But like Ban from NNT saying he's immortal and can't die is an advantage is fine for characters his lvl statwise but is a borderline if not just a plain NLF if say you were to say he could take punches from characters like Hulk or SBP and it be a stalemate is asinine he is immobilized and unable to do anything he loses

 

[NostalgiaFan]

I said it to Astaro and I'll say it to you:
You gotta give examples my man and why it's bad.
It may be simple as hell to us, but not to the people who constantly use these misconceptions.

In that case I should also expand on what I said regarding how anime fans always argue against high speed feats for comic characters. SpergBattles has plenty of cases where they will say just because guys like Thor don't show speed lines and shit that the feats they have of moving fast don't count as much as Manga and Anime characters as if showing them making a dash is oh so important to showing they are when it is a common thing that most writers and artists do not bother because they either don't know the exact science or they don't care to always draw everyone like they are speedsters even if they are as fast as them. If it is just a one off feat of them reacting to people they have never shown to be able to or rarely ever because they are mostly confined to slower opponents that have no issue reacting and even out speeding them like Wolverine it would make sense, but when you are a Herald level fighter who spends most of his comic history fighting against guys like Silver Surfer and other cosmic characters that need to be at least MFTL to even casually go around the universe like they do than speed lines don't mean shit if you can fight and keep up with them.

 

[Darth Nihilus]

 

[Gordo]

Wait, how the fuck some random ass character that has never fought the Hulk or even know his maximum believes Namor can fight onpar with him?
Is this seriously how Marvel writes shit these days?

Shang Chi and Namor’s statements about being Thor/Hulk level come from the directors themselves. VFX thing is just extra stuff

Shang is far more believable than Namor though. He at least fought a being that threatened the rest of the universe

I don’t know why anyone would ever let Black Panther tier characters fight someone as strong as Thor