To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - One Othinus To Rule Them All

compare that to something like Fate which is uh..

Paxton said:

I don't think it'd really be that complicated

Sephiroth above

Qliphoth below

and (most) phases would be in the middle (their exact position in the Four Worlds not withstanding)

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Yes, I imagine something like that, heaven and hell at both ends

Heaven's beyond the Tree entirely, and not in Keter, right?

Hiryuu said:

RIP to the "phases are all the same place" gang, IG

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it's just more evidence

it's already been stated there's distance between phases before GT11

he may be onto something.

Paxton said:

Heaven's beyond the Tree entirely, and not in Keter, right?

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From what is mentioned, the Qliphoth connects the Earth with the hell that is below all the phases, so it can be interpreted that the Sephiroth, being the opposite, connects the Earth with the heaven that is above all the phases.

Whether heaven or hell transcends the trees we do not know.

Paxton said:

Heaven's beyond the Tree entirely, and not in Keter, right?

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It's a phase that Othinus destroyed already and High Priest would destroy Hell with his presence if he died at full power.

Churronzon said:

It's a phase that Othinus destroyed already and High Priest would destroy Hell with his presence if he died at full power.

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bait used to be believable

Lucifer seeing High Priest make a new crater in Hell as he falls.

get High Priest past Vishnu first, then we can talk

Paxton said:

Heaven's beyond the Tree entirely, and not in Keter, right?

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B-but the only thing that can be beyond the Tree is God.

perhaps...

It is disappointing though, thought Kamachi would create a more unique world rather than copy-pasting Abrahamic cosmology. He fell back to the idea that there's only one true God and that is the God of Abraham.

I am reserving my final opinion until I actually read the volume though.

I will refrain from responding to that given what I've read of chapter 1

So I finally read chapter one of GT from Baka-Tsuki since I'd already been spoiled enough and there's no implication so far that Hell is anything but another phase.

All we're told is that hell is the bottommost phase of the Qliphoth which connects it to Earth. People here mentioned that Hell and Heaven exist above all phases, that they are not even Phases. Where did this come from again?

Darth Zion said:

So I finally read chapter one of GT from Baka-Tsuki since I'd already been spoiled enough and there's no implication so far that Hell is anything but another phase.

All we're told is that hell is the bottommost phase of the Qliphoth which connects it to Earth. People here mentioned that Hell and Heaven exist above all phases, that they are not even Phases. Where did this come from again?

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Not from me. It’s been stated repeatedly Heaven and Hell have always just been their own Phases

Don’t know where this headcanon shit about being there being multiple Heaven and Hells or whatever comes from

Astaro is always right once more

Astaro said:

there being multiple Heaven and Hells or whatever comes from

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There are multiple Hells at least.

This hell is a mixture of a few different ideas. There is no accurate model, so there is no correct path. We might suddenly wind up in the Buddhist Eight Great Hells or in the Shinto Yomotsu Hirasaka. In fact, if we go waltzing down there, thinking we know the answer, we might just run into a dead end.”

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That being said, the Hell Touma is in seems to be a Phase.

Firstly, it was called a Phase by narration. Interestingly, it was also called another world in the same vein which once again alludes that phases are their own realms.

The most sinful of the dead were sent to this place.

This world.

This layer.

This phase.

And if this was the final dumping ground for the lowest of the low souls…

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Then we are shown that Hell can be influence by human thought, just as we know phases can be. Kingsford goes on to compare Hell to other Phases by saying all other ideas of the realm of the dead are no more than phases placed on top of the physical world. You can never can never return to the basic physical world once you enter one.

What did you mean about hell being influenced?”

He meant the question for Kingsford, but Rosencreutz answered (while trembling for some reason).

“Ultimately, it is possible god didn’t give all that much thought to hell compared to heaven. It is described in Revelation, but modern people are as influenced by hymns and Paradise Lost as they are by the Bible and academic books.”

“Is it really that vague? I mean, aren’t heaven and hell a pretty core or root part of the entire mythology?”

“Tartarus, Niflheim, the Eight Great Hells, Yomi, and all other ideas of the realm of the dead are no more than phases placed on top of the physical world. But once you enter one, you can never return to the basic physical world.”

That made it sound like this was found alongside the ordinary streets and parks, just behind a thin layer of reality. That was hard to believe while seeing it from the hell side

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Then Kingsford mentioned the distance between phases being unimaginably great when explaining that Index is not there with them but in the original universe. This might be some kind of implies that the universe where the story takes place is a phase since she mentioned distance between each phases to tell him about the actual locations of Touma.

“Also, she isn’t here. You’re only spying on another territory located far from here. The world is made up of countless overlapping phases, but the distance between each phase is unimaginably great

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All in all, I haven't yet seen any implication that Hell in ToAru is anything other than a phase nor any evidence that Christianity is the true religion yet. But again, I'm reserving judgement since the entire novel has not been released yet.

@Darth Zion Let me correct myself on what I meant, I never understood the idea of there being a fake Hell Phase and a true Hell where all the souls destined for it go to that somehow also isn’t a Phase. Same with Heaven

That’s just dumb and needlessly convoluted, I’m well aware there’s Phases for other religion’s equivalent of Hell

Seeing people get confused by strange baseless rumors and spoilers is indeed amusing.

Let me clarify.
Heaven and Hell are among the Phases.

It has been explained multiple times that the physical world is also a type of Phase.

The forms of the afterlife—such as Tartarus, Niflheim, the Eight Great Hells, and the Yellow Springs Kingdom(黄泉国)—are merely Phases overlaid on the physical world. Once you set foot there, you can never return to the physical world.

The commonly spread image of Hell is depicted as a lawless zone or a base for demons, but that is merely an image solidified in novels or fiction.

About the Fake Hell

This Hell was not the real Hell.

A virtual realm created by integrating the images of many people who think of the word "Hell."
A place that covers souls who should have died with fiction, deceiving their destination, and manipulating their qualifications so that dead souls can return to the present world in the form of near-death experiences.

From the beginning, this fake Hell was something Johann prepared to resurrect himself, and Kingsford and Kamijou merely got involved in it.

The Phase that the CRC forcibly inserted was broken, and another layer beyond a thin membrane revealed itself.

It was the real Hell.

by deepl

I can't tell if the translation was done correctly since I don't know English, but if there are any strange parts, please let me know.

"GT Volume 11 provides a detailed depiction of Dante's 'Inferno'.

Below is a summary I prepared for Korean readers.
I used DeepL to translate that.

The three of them approach the lowest layer of Hell.
The deepest layer of Hell, Cocytus.
CRC tells Kamijou that he must have at least heard of such katakana terms.
Cocytus is divided into four sections: Caina, Antenora, Ptolomea, and Judecca.
In the lowest layer, Judecca, the three greatest sinners in the world receive eternal punishment.
The situation matched the numbers exactly.
But by that logic, wouldn't the guide Kingsford also suffer great harm?
If he planned to trap them at the bottom of Hell, wouldn't he need one more person besides Kingsford?
No matter how much he thought about it, he couldn't figure out Kingsford's purpose.
And when Kingsford's guidance ended, there was something in the central lake.
It was a monster that doesn't exist in the living world, something you wouldn't even need to know about unless you had fallen into Hell.

It felt different from formidable foes like Othinus or Aleister.
(Let me make it clear in advance: this is absolutely not an explanation about power, strength)
It was an existence that could bring about destruction merely by being in the same place.

Although he hadn't grasped its essence yet, there was a sense of alienation just from its vaguely visible silhouette.

Normally, when it comes to light and darkness, one would think that light is more virtuous.

But this place was different.

How reassuring the deep darkness was.

Just being able to avoid seeing that wriggling something.

Do not look.

Looking brings destruction.

He hadn't been told this by anyone, nor had he confirmed it himself, but he had an intuition that no matter what power resided in his right hand, it would be useless before that existence.

"The Great Devil King, or the King of Hell."

Was this Kingsford's objective?

To come into contact with such a being?

"There are various theories about his identity—Satan, Beelzebub, Lucifer—but his role is only one:

The ultimate executor of punishment, trampling upon the three most sinful people in the world for eternity."

Kamijou asked Kingsford.

"What are you trying to do by dragging us all the way here?"

Kingsford replied.

"I explained from the beginning. The entirety of Hell is structured like an inverted V-shaped cone.

Kingsford continued.

"It's simply because I wanted to secure the shortest route from Hell to the present world and ascend."

As in the Book of Revelation, people of that time couldn't imagine elevators, helicopters, or rockets when explaining the structure of Hell.

Only angels with two wings could ascend vertically.
And this place is that managed passage.
In the sky, transparent plates floated regularly like a spiral staircase.
An endless staircase.

"Can we return to the present world if we turn back from the gates of Hell?

Wouldn't we end up wandering forever in the upper layers of eternal Hell if we go further out?"

Kingsford explained the realm of the Qliphoth.

He said that although the Qliphoth could bring calamity when going from Hell to the present world, a master-level magician could pass through that realm and obtain secret arts.

And according to the meditation methods used in the Crowley school, the only way to transcend the world is to ascend vertically without being biased by moral dichotomies.

Kingsford concluded by saying that if you directly visualize modern theories, it would look roughly like this.

Then, did Anna Kingsford truly have no ulterior motives?

Did she deliberately descend into Hell, parting with the present world, just to help Kamijou?

Now a new question arose.

If Anna Kingsford had no ulterior motives, why did he begin to suspect her?
The culprit was Christian Rosenkreuz.

But CRC, flustered, said he was innocent.
This Hell was nothing more than a grand device for Johann.
Rather, wasn't it you who came here on your own after I died?
To the confused Kamijou, Kingsford explained.

This Hell was not the real Hell.
A virtual realm created by integrating the images of many people who think of the word "Hell."
A place that covers souls who should have died with fiction, deceiving their destination, and manipulating their qualifications so that dead souls can return to the present world in the form of near-death experiences.
From the beginning, this fake Hell was something Johann prepared to resurrect himself, and Kingsford and Kamijou merely got involved in it.

Then why did Kingsford come here?

CRC declared that he would return alive and uproot all Rosicrucians in the present world.

Kingsford revealed that she had chosen this method because she promised to help Kamijou Touma by any means necessary, even if it meant using unfair means.

Only one person could return to the present world from this fake Hell.

And now, Academy City had no capacity to withstand CRC's second attack.

If another attack came, it would truly be the end.

In other words, she intended to steal the resurrection seat Johann had prepared, resurrect Kamijou, and consume the only ticket to forever prevent CRC's resurrection.

Kamijou realized he had been a fool.

Kingsford had given up her own resurrection to help Kamijou.

Anyway, since the content of the book is so short, js06 will translate it quickly, but with this, we can at least prevent the spread of incorrect information before that happens.