To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - One Othinus To Rule Them All

[Darth Zion]

I don't understand why you think the calamities can't have both higher precedence and infinite power.

Because we are straight up told that Dainsleif cannot handle a certain amount of raw power- that amount of raw power being Vishnu outside of his mortal avatars.

That means that the summoned calamities were all weaker than that level of power- If they were infinite then their raw power would've been above any and all bounds you can think of. That's what infinite means- you can think of any arbitrary number and it would be infinitely smaller than actual infinity. Kamachi knows this.

This is not the case with these calamities, they qualitatively weaker than the limit of the sword meaning they were finite. Besides, the sword does not summon whole Phase Beings anyways and instead only calls down a fraction of them.

 

[Darth Zion]

Another thing is that the sword is a symbol of human power, and Gugnir is can break all such objects.

Meaning, Othinus with Gugnir would have automatically been capable of breaking that sword and the powers summoned by it.

 

[Paxton]

Another thing is that the sword is a symbol of human power, and Gugnir is can break all such objects.

Meaning, Othinus with Gugnir would have automatically been capable of breaking that sword and the powers summoned by it.

Then it's not a fitting weapon to oppose and kill a Magic God if she instantly wins against the calamities.

 

[Paxton]

How are refined masses of energy capable of killing a Magic God considered "human" in terms of precedence, exactly?

How is Dainsleif even a symbol of human power?

 

[Darth Zion]

It should at least be superior to her pure elements, and then we have Gungnir being superior to pure elements.. which is stupid

Flaming Sword is equal to Gugnir when it comes to raw power.

But it's superior qualitatively because it's made up of Pure Elements. You're thinking of pure elements as a power level when it's an indication of hierarchical superiority. In a clash, Flaming Sword would win every time. But they are equal when it comes to the raw power behind them, the difference is that Othinus used her mana to power Gugnir whereas Coronzon uses superior Telesma to power Flaming Sword.

Then it's not a fitting weapon to oppose and kill a Magic God.

Exactly my point. Adding to that-

• It was never stated to be capable of defeating a Magic God or even comming close to killing them.
• Othinus calling it a 'fitting' weapon was merely her praising it as something being worthy of being used against her.

It's like Gilgamesh acknowledging Iskander as a King despite being completely above him in power. It is not an indicator of power level, it's merely one character acknowledging something as being worthy enough.

 

[Paxton]

Flaming Sword is equal in Gugnir when it comes to raw power.

But it's superior qualitatively because it's made up of Pure Elements. You're thinking of pure elements as a power level when it's an indication of hierarchical superiority.

In a clash, Flaming Sword would win every time. But they are equal when it comes to the raw power behind them.

Exactly my point. Adding to that-

• It was never stated to be capable of defeating a Magic God or even comming close to killing them.
• Othinus calling it a 'fitting' weapon was merely her praising it as something being worthy of being used against her.

It's like Gilgamesh acknowledging Iskander as a King despite being completely above him in power. It is not an indicator of power level, it's merely one character acknowledging something as being worthy enough.

Still doesn't make much sense, but I mostly agree anyway.


But it was?

"Nevertheless, the loss of that power tore at her heart now."
"The power refined to kill a Magic God was being turned toward a mere boy, yet she could not stop it."

I just posted this on the previous page.

It is an indicator of power level though.

"However, these were nothing more than power focused into the images of the calamites people had imagined and so they would not necessarily look exactly like those gods of death or demon kings, but the raw power that presented itself made that fact easy to forget."

"Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and everything would have shattered like glass. Having destroyed the world herself, Othinus knew that was no exaggeration."

The calamities blatantly scale to her.

 

[Darth Zion]

The power refined to kill a Magic God was being turned toward a mere boy, yet she could not stop it.

That's again not an indication of power level Pax. It's an indication of Marian's motivations, context is important.

Marian had been preparing her spells for a long time because she wanted to kill Othinus for deceiving her completely when each member of Gremlin were all giving their lives for Othinus in the hopes that their wishes.

That's what it meant, that Marian had prepared all that because she wanted to absolutely kill Othinus for betraying them and their dreams. The intent of that power and the reason why it was prepared was to kill Othinus, not that it was actually capable of doing so had she been at her strongest.

How is Dainsleif even a symbol of human power?

Because it's a sword that was wielded by a human king in mythology and is being wielded by a human in the story itself.

 

[Paxton]

That's again not an indication of power level Pax. It's an indication of Marian's motivations, context is important.

Marian had been preparing her spells for a long time because she wanted to kill Othinus for deceiving her completely when each member of Gremlin were all giving their lives for Othinus in the hopes that their wishes.

That's what it meant, that Marian had prepared all that because she wanted to absolutely kill Othinus for betraying them and their dreams. The intent of that power and the reason why it was prepared was to kill Othinus, not that it was actually capable of doing so had she been at her strongest.

Because it's a sword that was wielded by a human king in mythology and is being wielded by a human in the story itself.

It can be both, you know. Both in regards to her motivation (to kill Othinus) and the actual capability of the sword (to kill Othinus).

Unless you're genuinely saying if Othinus stood still and let Marian hit her with it she'd be unscathed.

 

[Darth Zion]

Unless you're genuinely saying if Othinus stood still and let Marian hit her with it she'd be unscathed.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying- everything in the story indicates that this is the case. You're severely underselling how strong Othinus is.

The only thing saying otherwise are two sentences that have other meaning and context behind them

 

[Paxton]

Yeah, that's what I'm saying- everything in the story indicates that this is the case. You're severely underselling how strong Othinus is.

The only thing saying otherwise are two sentences that have other meaning and context behind them

can overload and destroy the world with a singular calamity
Othinus would be able to tank all of their attacks without a scratch

Yeah that makes no sense whatsoever. Othinus isn't tanking attacks from them, let alone Vishnu's avatar.
They're literally compared to pure elements.


Anyway, there's nothing putting phase beings above Magic Gods in terms of actual power then if you believe the calamities are this weak.

 

[Darth Zion]

So you think that Othinus is only universal? She created a hundred billion universes and destroyed them all together with a single attack of Gugnir, so I don't see something merely universal defeating her unless it was also superior qualitatively.

And read your own quote, it says 'power refined to kill a Magic God'- Not power that could kill a Magic God but power that was refined for the purpose of killing one. Then consider how nobody in the world even knows just how strong a Magic God is except for the top magicians and that Marian is not one of them.

You're ignoring the context behind your quotes, one is about the motivation of Marian and the other is about Othinus acknowledging the sword as a worthy weapon.

 

[Paxton]

So you think that Othinus is only universal?

She created a hundred billion universes and destroyed them all together with a single attack of Gugnir.

And read your own quote- It says 'power refined to kill a Magic God'

Not power that could kill a Magic God but power that was refined for the purpose of killing one. Then consider nobody in the world knows just how strong a Magic God is except for the top magicians and that Marian is not one of them. You're ignoring the context behind that quote.

No? Where are you getting this from? I know what "world" means in this context. It's not just the planet or a single universe.


Yes, but the fact that they're compared to pure elements and can replicate Othinus' own destruction of the world should clue you in on how strong these calamities are supposed to be, narratively.

 

[Paxton]

Can Othinus tank a hit from Vishnu's avatar? Yes or no?

 

[Darth Zion]

the fact that they're compared to pure elements

Nope, they are not. The calamities Dainsleif summons are figments of the actual phase beings, it's like saying Misha is equal to Archangel Gabriel. And again, pure elements is not a level of power.

can replicate Othinus' own destruction of the world

Nope, they cannot.

I pointed this out before but their destruction of the universe is by overloading a single universe by their power. On the other hand, Othinus vanished a hundred billion universe replicas she had created together by swinging her lance. One is objectively superior to the other.

Can Othinus tank a hit from Vishnu's avatar? Yes or no?

The one Dianself summoned, yes.

The actual Phase Being known as Vishnu who was strong that Dianself could summon a figment of his avatar's power for only ten seconds despite being capable of summoning Abaddon who is an Archangel. Nope.

But that's the entire point of my argument- the calamities summoned by Dainsleif does not scale to Phase Beings themselves.

 

[Paxton]

Nope, they are not.

The calamities Dainsleif summons are figments of the actual phase beings, it's like saying Misha is equal to Archangel Gabriel. And again, pure elements is not a level of power.

Nope, they cannot.

I pointed this out before but their destruction of the universe is by overloading a single universe by their power.

On the other hand, Othinus vanished a hundred billion universe replicas she had created together by swinging her lance. One is objectively superior to the other.

The one Dianself summoned, yes.

The actual Phase Being known as Vishnu who was strong that Dianself could summon a figment of his avatar's power for only ten seconds despite being capable of summoning Abaddon who is an Archangel. Nope.

But that's the entire point of my argument- the calamities summoned by Dainsleif does not scale to Phase Beings themselves.

..

"Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and everything would have shattered like glass.
Having destroyed the world herself, Othinus knew that was no exaggeration."

Literally no?? It's directly comparing a single calamity overloading the world with Othinus' destruction of the world.

 

[Paxton]

Nope, they are not.

The calamities Dainsleif summons are figments of the actual phase beings, it's like saying Misha is equal to Archangel Gabriel. And again, pure elements is not a level of power.

Nope, they cannot.

I pointed this out before but their destruction of the universe is by overloading a single universe by their power.

On the other hand, Othinus vanished a hundred billion universe replicas she had created together by swinging her lance. One is objectively superior to the other.

The one Dianself summoned, yes.

The actual Phase Being known as Vishnu who was strong that Dianself could summon a figment of his avatar's power for only ten seconds despite being capable of summoning Abaddon who is an Archangel. Nope.

But that's the entire point of my argument- the calamities summoned by Dainsleif does not scale to Phase Beings themselves.

Doesn't make sense then. You think calamities are infinitely weaker than Othinus and are only universal yet somehow being arbitrarily more powerful than them = she suddenly can't tank attacks anymore.

 

[Darth Zion]

"Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and everything would have shattered like glass.
Having destroyed the world herself, Othinus knew that was no exaggeration

Where is it stated that both are equal, in fact the quotes states the opposite. It's like you're ignoring the story.

Here is how they destroy the world-

"Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and everything would have shattered like glass

By overloading the universe with their power.

In comparison, here is Othinus destroying the world-

Magic God Othinus lightly spun the lance around in one hand and pointed its tip toward the heavens.

She spoke slowly.

She uttered two short sentences.

"These small fights are such a pain. I think I'll just end the world."

And exactly as she had announced, everything was immediately destroy

Yeah, I also said this before that both result in the universe being destroyed but the means to do so are completely different.

Othinus also destroys the walls of the phases in the process-

As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the "happy world" was smashed to pieces as if space itself was being torn apart.

As a fragment of the world approached with the force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.

Everything was ripped up.

The black labyrinth, which had used up all of its possibilities, showed itself

Moreover, one only destroys a single universe, whereas Othinus destroyed a hundred billion universes that way.

I don't understand how they are comparable. Again, it's like comparing Soul King to Zeno.

 

[Paxton]

Where is it stated that both are equal, in fact the quotes states the opposite. It's like you're ignoring the story.

Here is how they destroy the world-

By overloading the universe with their power.

In comparison, here is Othinus destroying the world-

Yeah, I also said this before that both result in the universe being destroyed but the means to do so are completely different.

Othinus also destroys the walls of the phases in the process-

Moreover, one only destroys a single universe, whereas Othinus destroyed a hundred billion universes that way.

I don't understand how they are comparable. Again, it's like comparing Soul King to Zeno.

Yeah except "world" in this context is more than just the universe.

That's literally why they are directly compared: they can do the same shit she did.

 

[Darth Zion]

Doesn't make sense then

Your reading comprehension doesn't make sense.

I said Dainsleif summons a figment of the Phase Beings like WW2 Gabriel, not the actual Gods and Demons.

The actual Vishnu might be able to defeat Othinus but Dainsleif does not summon actual Vishnu.

 

[Paxton]

Your reading comprehension doesn't make sense.

I said Dainsleif summons a figment of the Phase Beings like WW2 Gabriel, not the actual Gods and Demons.

The actual Vishnu might be able to defeat Othinus but Dainsleif does not summon actual Vishnu.

It doesn't matter, because there's nothing that actually supports the actual Vishnu being as strong as Othinus.