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To Aru vs Kamen Rider

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Churronzon

Notorious
those are tangible things, metaphysical things like kabalah are not the same across works, authors depict it differently
Do you want me to list every way he's depicted the Sephiroth consistently for 20+ years and demonstrated in-depth knowledge of while directly mirroring the IRL version? Yes he's taken creative liberties in certain areas such as Coronzon, but fumbling the most basic aspect of Kabbalah isn't one of them.
 
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Churronzon

Notorious
I'll make it easier and use stuff that requires 0 IRL info. We know collective archetypes exist in Toaru even without the Kabbalah-yapping since the Archetype Controller exists in Toaru, which explicitly destroys archetypes.

The Will of the Misaka Network satisfied the same qualifications of surpassing life and death, encompasses the entirety of the Clonoth, while being even more abstract than energy as a collective unconscious.

Edit: Btw I really don't care about the victor of the fight. Toaru could lose and I'd be fine with it. I don't have beef with goldenboy either, but I just hate when people assume Kamachi has no idea what he's basing things off of when he clearly pours lots of passion into dropping boatloads of accurate esoteric knowledge every volume which 99% of has 0 battleboarding relevance.
 
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When an author uses the speed of light, what speed do you assume?
When an author uses the gravity on earth, what acceleration do you assume?

...That's not even remotely how that works towards Cryso's question or how others see certain places and religions in fiction...

Mount Olympus is literally just a Mountain in Religion, doesn't stop most fiction from making it something more absurd than it actually is, same with Yggdrasil and the Realms that are in each branch.

So yeah, it's a big ask and I feel you don't have the answer if you state it to such a degree.
 

Churronzon

Notorious
...That's not even remotely how that works towards Cryso's question or how others see certain places and religions in fiction...

Mount Olympus is literally just a Mountain in Religion, doesn't stop most fiction from making it something more absurd than it actually is, same with Yggdrasil and the Realms that are in each branch.

So yeah, it's a big ask and I feel you don't have the answer if you state it to such a degree.
Are you arguing that anything but Asiyah is also a physical creation?

The official Yen Press translation describes Assiah as a physical world, making the others non-physical.
“Anyway, Angel Fall is a spell that forcefully pulls an angel down from above, and this will affect the four worlds—in other words, the original world, the world of creation, the formed world and the physical world.”
 
I'll make it easier and use stuff that requires 0 IRL info. We know collective archetypes exist in Toaru even without the Kabbalah-yapping since the Archetype Controller exists in Toaru, which explicitly destroys archetypes.

The Will of the Misaka Network satisfied the same qualifications of surpassing life and death, encompasses the entirety of the Clonoth, while being even more abstract than energy as a collective unconscious.

Edit: Btw I really don't care about the victor of the fight. Toaru could lose and I'd be fine with it. I don't have beef with goldenboy either, but I just hate when people assume Kamachi has no idea what he's basing things off of when he clearly pours lots of passion into dropping boatloads of accurate esoteric knowledge every volume which 99% of has 0 battleboarding relevance.

Okay, if we are going by that route, I guess that means we should just assume that any deity is as strong as they are in canon? Because if that's the case, then I legit have to ask so many questions of Kamachi's portrayal of the Archangels, their weapons and God amongst many, many other things because I heavily fucking doubt that the Philosopher's Stone, the cornerstone of what will most likely be what Touma is... is a something within the "Invisible Thing" and Imagine Breaker and is enough to warp the fabric of the Universe...

Let alone other franchises... like Kamen Rider!
 
Are you arguing that anything but Asiyah is also a physical creation?

The official Yen Press translation describes Assiah as a physical world, making the others non-physical.

Yeah cool beans, that's not the point I stated and you know it.
You are literally assuming that Kamachi made To Aru be literally compatible with Kabbalah in every way including how the very thing operates when that is not how authors do things.

We do not float that shit here unless you have actual proof and no, we do not buy "Well he studied Kabbalah for so long" because Nasu and his writers study many various religions and otherwise and we don't pretend he gets a pass for how their shit works must equal the actual religion.
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
Okay, if we are going by that route, I guess that means we should just assume that any deity is as strong as they are in canon? Because if that's the case, then I legit have to ask so many questions of Kamachi's portrayal of the Archangels, their weapons and God amongst many, many other things because I heavily fucking doubt that the Philosopher's Stone, the cornerstone of what will most likely be what Touma is... is a something within the "Invisible Thing" and Imagine Breaker and is enough to warp the fabric of the Universe...

Let alone other franchises... like Kamen Rider!

What exactly are you trying to say?

And the Philosopher's Stone shit is just a theory at this point.
 

Churronzon

Notorious
"Well he studied Kabbalah for so long" because Nasu and his writers study many various religions and otherwise and we don't pretend he gets a pass for how their shit works must equal the actual religion.
I think Nasu is one of the best writers to have depicted Ein Sof. I don't downplay Nasu like a lot of other Toaru fans seem to do and would equally apply the same freedom to Nasu-verse. But that's mostly because I'm not a powerscaler, so I understand why ppl would want to dismiss my arguments if it doesn't fit their standards and I don't blame em.

I'm just trying to be real with ppl.
 
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Mr.OMG

Paramount
Yeah cool beans, that's not the point I stated and you know it.
You are literally assuming that Kamachi made To Aru be literally compatible with Kabbalah in every way including how the very thing operates when that is not how authors do things.

We do not float that shit here unless you have actual proof and no, we do not buy "Well he studied Kabbalah for so long" because Nasu and his writers study many various religions and otherwise and we don't pretend he gets a pass for how their shit works must equal the actual religion.
Well, the whole ToAru is practically a retelling of esoteric books (as if to say this is the purpose of the whole ToAru, to write a series of books that are as close to real esoteric knowledge as possible). Kamachi literally does Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V in his books. Some things can only be understood by reading esoteric books from IRL Aleister Crowley and other books. For example Kamachi doesn't explain why Coronzon is a woman, you have to read the actual Aleister Crowley books for that. And all things Kaballah also Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V.
 

Masterblack06

Man of Atom
Moderator
He became the concept of the universal archetype of a "Hero"?
That's actually cool but could you explain how different that is from destroying the world of Archetypes, Atzilut?


Btw there's a specific No-Thing that would recreate the verse after all of creation gets destroyed and which emanated the Sefirot to begin with.
I confused, what here let's anyone beat MoB Gaim?

Like I don't really get what the rebuttal to my statements were.

Even if we say anyone in to aru gets past gaim, how do they get past Mighty Novel X who's power is literally weaponized plot manipulation of his own existence and this is done using the powers of MoB

Shit son, why is it that 99% of to aru just does fuck and all I'm these kinda threads and it's literally up to the literal tippy top tiers to hard carry their verse against anything worth its salt
 

Churronzon

Notorious
Even if we say anyone in to aru gets past gaim, how do they get past Mighty Novel X who's power is literally weaponized plot manipulation of his own existence and this is done using the powers of MoB
Toaru doesn't, Kamen Rider wins off it
Shit son, why is it that 99% of to aru just does fuck and all I'm these kinda threads and it's literally up to the literal tippy top tiers to hard carry their verse against anything worth its salt
I dunno lol.

SMT has the advantage of their Gnostic series having an endgame every game, yknow. Toaru is being dragged out for a century since he wants it to be the longest-running LN series ever, which sucks in this aspect.

Like Level 6 Accel when??
 
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Flowering Knight

Exceptional
V.I.P. Member
If we're saying that To Aru religion is = IRL religion then that means Greek gods in Soul Calibur are universe level and the two swords are >= them so that means Soul Calibur is finally universal+. Checkmate atheists
bx0auvnt5m671.jpg
 

Churronzon

Notorious
Kabbalah isn't a religion; how would anyone even scale it. Did anyone try to assign a tier to it?

Edit: I also said you can ignoring the kabbalah-yapping and just use this comment instead of everything else I typed.

Can also resume debating Astaro. I know he hates the kabbalah shit as much as u guys
 
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Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
Each hair breadth isn't a separare infinity, the whole space itself exists as a single infinity.

On the other hand, the Saver System, Mirror World, and infinite timelines are all separate and disconnected from each other.
Someone’s not reading

Or resorting to lying now.

It’s just in destiny’s hands whether we run across each other in this place where the tiniest gap extends to an infinite distance☆

Try again
 
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So this is what ChatGPT has to say
Given the nature of the debate and the points raised by both Goldenboy and Astaro, here is a suggested reply that addresses the key arguments while maintaining a respectful and logical tone:

---

Reply to Astaro:

Astaro, I understand your interpretation of the quote, "It’s just in destiny’s hands whether we run across each other in this place where the tiniest gap extends to an infinite distance☆", to imply a unique spatial structure within the Hidden Phase. However, I think it's important to consider a few points:

1. Continuous Infinity:
- The description suggests that within the Hidden Phase, even the smallest distances can stretch infinitely. This indicates a continuous, non-linear spatial property rather than discrete, separate infinities. In other words, the entire space is one infinite entity where distances can be infinitely expanded.

2. Comparison with Other Universes:
- In "Kamen Rider," multiple disconnected infinite realms exist, such as the Saver System, Mirror World, and infinite timelines. These are distinct and separate infinities, which fundamentally differs from a single, continuous infinite space.

3. Textual Evidence and Canonical Interpretation:
- The quote you provided highlights the unique nature of space within the Hidden Phase, but it doesn't necessarily imply multiple infinities within it. Instead, it suggests that space behaves in an unconventional manner, making small gaps appear infinitely large. This is still consistent with the idea of a single infinite realm.

4. Concept of Infinity:
- Infinity is a concept that doesn't change regardless of context. While the Hidden Phase might have unique spatial properties, it's important to recognize that it represents a single continuous infinite space, not multiple infinities.

5. Contextual Understanding:
- The broader context of the series supports the interpretation of the Hidden Phase as a unique infinite space, but not as something that contains multiple separate infinities. The complexity of its spatial properties adds depth to its portrayal but doesn't necessarily make it superior to other infinite multiverses in scope.

In summary, while the Hidden Phase has unique and fascinating spatial properties, it aligns more with the concept of a single continuous infinity. Comparing it to the distinct infinite realms in "Kamen Rider" highlights different approaches to depicting infinite spaces in fiction.

Let’s continue this discussion with more textual evidence and explore how different interpretations of infinity contribute to the richness of both "Toaru Majutsu no Index" and "Kamen Rider."

This reply addresses Astaro's points while reinforcing the distinction between continuous and discrete infinities and emphasizes the importance of context and canonical evidence.
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
@Papa Nier Way to play yourself

Instead, it suggests that space behaves in an unconventional manner, making small gaps appear infinitely large


There’s no appear infinitely large, they are an infinite distance with each hair’s breadth as stated twice.

Context is important, Tangram and Othinus already mess with infinite multiverses and True Gremlin even after dividing their power infinitely are still stronger then either.

That Hidden Phase is as large as it is because at their full power, no other reality can contain them
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
I love the logic here, guess the Beyond Realm in Marvel being a single space isn’t in fact larger than the Marvel Multiverse it encompasses even Pre-Retcon either

Elder Scrolls also gets utterly screwed over with the numerous infinite realms all occupying the same space Oblivion no longer actually being infinite
 
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Hey Astaro,

I appreciate your enthusiasm for this topic. Let’s dive deeper into the points you’ve raised:

1. Infinite Distance in Hidden Phase: You emphasize that each hair’s breadth is an infinite distance, as stated twice. However, the core issue remains whether this concept aligns with the continuous, non-linear infinite space. The unique spatial properties of the Hidden Phase can still be understood as one continuous infinite space rather than multiple separate infinities.

2. Context of Canonical Sources: You’re referencing "Virtual-On" material, which isn’t considered canon within the "Toaru Majutsu no Index" main storyline. To maintain a fair debate, we should focus on the canonical content. "Virtual-On" collaboration events, while interesting, are typically not part of the official timeline or core canon.

3. Tangram and Othinus: Both Tangram and Othinus are powerful characters who interact with complex multiversal concepts. The Tangram in "Virtual-On" exists across all points in time and space, spanning a multiverse of infinite parallel worlds and dimensions, confirming its multiversal nature. However, this doesn't necessarily redefine the Hidden Phase as multiple separate infinities. Instead, it underscores the unique and powerful properties within a single infinite realm.

4. True Gremlin: The feats of True Gremlin, even after dividing their power infinitely, highlight their immense strength. However, this still aligns with the concept of a single infinite space containing immense power rather than multiple separate infinities.

### Canonical Evidence:
For a more grounded discussion, let's stick to canonical sources from "Toaru Majutsu no Index" and its direct sequels. The official light novels and main series provide a clearer framework for these debates.

### Conclusion:
The Hidden Phase's spatial properties are indeed unconventional, but interpreting it as multiple separate infinities instead of a single continuous infinity stretches beyond the canonical descriptions. Let’s keep our focus on canonical material for a more accurate debate.

Looking forward to your thoughts on this.
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
Maybe use your own brain for once in an argument @Papa Nier instead of continuing to copy and paste AI like a bot

Your not addressing my other examples with verses on here that get a free pass arguing the same logic for one

And two, besides Goldenboi using non-canon things like those stage plays for his arguments and I’m sure other stuff, this really is a rare case where non-canon applies anyway

At first, I thought I should build a world that strictly follows the worldview of Virtual-On (and the more I did that, the more material I had to use). However, when Watari-san saw the plot I had come up with, he told me to split it into two pieces and put more of my own ideas into it. I don't know how to describe how I felt at that time, but it was a really big shock, and I realized that this work was different from what I usually do.

it's true that the collaboration is not an official event. But for the fools who claim that it's not official settings at all, please convey this to them.

^ Words from the creator on how Toaru X Virtual On applies to the series
 
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