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Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 1: OBD 2027 prologue edition

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Really? The Strongest Demonic Sword that is consistently compared to the strongest Holy Sword(which would be Excalibur) and stated by 2 Beings that can even tell that the World they was living in is a lie and the other can see beyond the lost time of the Lostbelt with his eye... are liars now?
Yes, Gram as wielded by Sigurd is not as powerful as the sun. If that were to be true then Gungnir would be as powerful as the sun, and therefore would Gae Bolg.
Gram being as powerful as the soul make about half of the Nasuverse sun level, from scaling Balmung, Clarent, Galatine and Nero over and over to other characters.

Use your brain for a minute, why would Sefar and Amaterasu being stated to be as powerful as the sun be impressive if garbage like Gram was sun level?
I don't lurk other forums, because this hobby is a crapshoot and why would I bother, but Nasu fucked up the scale as far back as Tsukihime with Nvrnqsr Chaos alluded to being something Excalibur could nuke whereas Arcueid could do fuck all too.
Nasu never alluded that Nrvnqsr Chaos was one of the DAA that Excalibur could defeat.
 
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Yes, Gram as wielded by Sigurd is not as powerful as the sun. If that were to be true then Gungnir would be as powerful as the sun, and therefore would Gae Bolg.

1. I'm not even sure how that works considering the only comparison Gungnir has to Gae Bolg in terms of use is the fact that the nature of how Thrown Gae Bolg works, it would ultimately function a hell of alot better to Gungnir only doing that to one person vs. Thrown Gae Bolg's many.

2. Odin has much more shit in his arsenal in legend than Gungnir, that's just his most well known one. He has other shit like Gram and Chastefoil. So even if we buy Gungnir is fully weaker than Gae Bolg, what does that matter in the long run for Odin or the comparison to Gram?

Gram being as powerful as the soul make about half of the Nasuverse sun level, from scaling Balmung, Clarent, Galatine and Nero over and over to other characters.

No? Excalibur Galatine is basically given the same onus that it uses the radiation of the Sun to do so?
Fate/EXTRA material - Encyclopedia: The Reborn Sword of Victory [Noble Phantasm], p.163
The Reborn Sword of Victory [Noble Phantasm]
Excalibur Galatine.
Gawain's Anti-Army Noble Phantasm. A Pseudo-Sun is contained in the hilt.
A holy sword in King Arthur's legends, it is the sister sword to Excalibur. If Excalibur is a sword that destroys castles, this sword destroys the enemy army.
If King Arthur's holy sword collects the light of the stars, Sir Gawain's holy sword represents the rays of heat from the sun.
Unlike Excalibur's centralized attack, Galatine is a broad wave, radiation-type attack that completely annihilates the enemy army. Like Excalibur, the original owner is a Maiden of the Lake. Hidden in Excalibur's shadow, it's a holy sword rarely mentioned in the legends.
In the remaining legends, it is similar to its owner, Gawain, and shows its greatest power at noon, the unsurpassed shaprness of the edge is said to become visible. That sharpness sliced clean through the shield and chainmail of the enemy, the Saracen soldier Priamus.
As Arthur has the providence of the night (Alto, Artemis, the pedigree of the goddess of the moon), Gawain is the knight who receives the blessing of the sun.
That special characteristic is reflected in the Noble Phantasm, which is like the rays of heat from the sun. Caladbolg is the prototype of Galatine, like a long rainbow, and cleanly sliced off the top of a hill with its full power.
It was a sword of light that stretched from the magic sword like a rainbow. Galatine is similar; with a motion like drawing a sword, and the pseudo sun inside and the magical energy put into it, the attack extends as far as it is possible to visualize the blade of the sword.
That is to say...about 13 kilometers or so.
And the latest Camelot Movie even has that level of heat being able to effect the remains from Ozymandias' flying ship


Balmung is explicitly stated to be 1:1 to Gram since FSN(Even BECOMING Balmung from Gram):
Fate/stay night - Weapon Menu: Gram
????
Demonic Sword, Sword of the Sun, Gram.
A demonic sword of ruin and glory that Sigurd, the greatest hero of Northern Europe, possessed in the Volsunga Saga.
It is the model of Caliburn in the legend of King Arthur. As Caliburn was a chosen sword in a stone, Gram was also a chosen sword in the mighty tree of the Volsunga king.
The legend of Gram and its possessor Sigurd is a story filled with glory and ruin, as one would expect from a great hero.
"Der Ring des Nibelungen", composed later in Middle Ages Germany, is the story of a knight equal to the legend of King Artnur, and the sword Gram changes its name and appears in it as Balmung.
As the "strongest demonic sword" equaling the "strongest holy sword", it even possesses the special characteristic of "dragon slayer".

And when did Clarent rival either one of these? In the Anime and LN, Sieg never uses the full power of Balmung ONCE(He even notes he cannot reach it's full power as his body can't take it), not even against Karna and in the LN, when he used a Command Spell to do so Vasavi Shakti and it was EQUALLY MATCHED until Sieg lost the willpower war that followed.
Mordred in the LN took a weak ass shot from it and got lucky and in the Anime, it was the same deal.

And Nero is bullshit incarnate in a literal sense as she's a Beast Candidate and Imperial Privilege is broken as fuck. So that's literally the one outlier everyone points at... but that doesn't solve everything else.

Use your brain for a minute, why would Sefar and Amaterasu being stated to be as powerful as the sun be impressive if garbage like Gram was sun level?

...Yes? This is the same deal as Artoria and Quetzalcoatl is able to destroy the Grail Mud/Primordial Sea making them Planetary STILL wouldn't solve shit. Maybe... just maybe the enemy is just that strong? The Beasts can't be that powerful? As are the Gods completely unchained like Ivan The Terrible and Surtr? Wodime can't be?

Nasu never alluded that Nrvnqsr Chaos was one of the DAA that Excalibur could defeat.

He actually did say it but it's understandable why you would forget.
 
Nasu never alluded that Nrvnqsr Chaos was one of the DAA that Excalibur could defeat.
Not directly by name, but by characteristic of how he fights.
Comptiq 2006-11 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A
Q: Who'd win if the Servants and the 27 Ancestors fought each other?
Q: Who'd win if the Servants and the 27 Ancestors fought each other? Also, who'd win in a fight between Bazett, a renowned powerhouse of the Association, and Ciel, top class in even the Association?

A:
Depends on compatibility, but basically Servants will have the slightly higher advantage. With Saber, Lancer, and Archer classes, we ought to be able to relax and see decent fights. In particular, Saber has THAT sort of Noble Phantasms so against guys like the 27 Ancestors that overwhelm by material quantity and alienness, she'd be REALLY tough.
....Well, there are also some of those tough Ancestors that can withstand a direct hit from Excalibur-class attacks, but against those guys that just (emphasis on just; other stats don't match up) have wickedly high HP, Lancer-aniki'd be pretty tough.
Nvrnqsr Chaos’ whole literal shtick is quantity.

Or did you just never notice that? It’s an old quote, so it’s easy to miss.
 
Yes, Gram as wielded by Sigurd is not as powerful as the sun. If that were to be true then Gungnir would be as powerful as the sun, and therefore would Gae
Gram being as powerful as the soul make about half of the Nasuverse sun level, from scaling Balmung, Clarent, Galatine and Nero over and over to other characters.
Welcome to the Dragon Ball problem

This isn’t a unique issue. It pops up in this hobby all the time. Singular feats define the power of a verse. Doesn’t matter the scale, can even call such and such an outlier, just means the next stand out feat takes its place in the vending machine instead.
 
Welcome to the Dragon Ball problem
I mean, at least with Dragon Ball we actually see fodder like Roshi and Piccolo destroy moons, as well as King Vegeta destroy 3 planets with a hand-wave.

But Gram as wielded by Sigurd being as powerful as the sun? It doesn't quite make as much sense.
Nvrnqsr Chaos’ whole literal shtick is quantity.

Or did you just never notice that? It’s an old quote, so it’s easy to miss.
No, I simply assumed that Nrvnqsr Chaos was the other kind of DAA, the one with so much HP that could withstand Excalibur.
He actually did say it but it's understandable why you would forget.
No, he didn't. He literally doesn't name drop a single DAA in that quote.
1. I'm not even sure how that works considering the only comparison Gungnir has to Gae Bolg in terms of use is the fact that the nature of how Thrown Gae Bolg works, it would ultimately function a hell of alot better to Gungnir only doing that to one person vs. Thrown Gae Bolg's many.
EMIYA outright says that Gae Bolg surpasses its original, Gungnir.
「— I'm astonished.
 [To think that] there existed a spear within this World that could penetrate the Aias.
 Yours has surpassed its original, 『the Greater God Declaration the Gungnir』.」
If you want to interpret that it means Gae Bolg only surpasses Gungnir specifically in the capacity of penetrating Aias and nothing else, then be my guest. But that's a tough pill to swallow considering that according to your logic Gungnir would be as powerful as the sun.
2. Odin has much more shit in his arsenal in legend than Gungnir, that's just his most well known one. He has other shit like Gram and Chastefoil. So even if we buy Gungnir is fully weaker than Gae Bolg, what does that matter in the long run for Odin or the comparison to Gram?
It doesn't matter for Odin, it matters for Gae Bolg because it being as powerful as the sun is nonsensical.
No? Excalibur Galatine is basically given the same onus that it uses the radiation of the Sun to do so?
"represents the rays of heat from the sun"
"which is like the rays of heat from the sun"

These are similes, not literal statements.
And the latest Camelot Movie even has that level of heat being able to effect the remains from Ozymandias' flying ship
How is that proof that Galatine is as powerful as the sun?
And when did Clarent rival either one of these? In the Anime and LN, Sieg never uses the full power of Balmung ONCE(He even notes he cannot reach it's full power as his body can't take it), not even against Karna and in the LN, when he used a Command Spell to do so Vasavi Shakti and it was EQUALLY MATCHED until Sieg lost the willpower war that followed.
Mordred in the LN took a weak ass shot from it and got lucky and in the Anime, it was the same deal.
How much weaker do you think Sieg's Balmung is than the real Siegfried? Because even if it was a hundred times weaker (a massive high ball) if would still give Clarent an absurd level of power, if Balmung's full power was truly equal to the sun's.
And Nero is bullshit incarnate in a literal sense as she's a Beast Candidate and Imperial Privilege is broken as fuck. So that's literally the one outlier everyone points at... but that doesn't solve everything else.
It's not like Nero is the only Servant that faces Galatine's power without being incinerated: Lancelot, Mash, Bedivere, etc.
...Yes? This is the same deal as Artoria and Quetzalcoatl is able to destroy the Grail Mud/Primordial Sea making them Planetary
Neither Artoria or Quetzalcoatl are capable of destroying Tiamat's Chaos Tide, the goddess herself says that she could only do a small permiter around her. And the Grail Mud may be referred as being the same as the Sea of Life, but the amount that Tiamat spawned is incomparable to the small quantity that Excalibur destroyed.
 
I mean, at least with Dragon Ball we actually see fodder like Roshi and Piccolo destroy moons, as well as King Vegeta destroy 3 planets with a hand-wave.
You're kind of ignoring what I said.

You can call the top of the heap an outlier, it just defaults to the next feat down the list they exhibit if that's your criteria for usage.

Also, only feats in Dragon Ball of any note from the manga pre-Super were Roshi and Raditz-Piccolo Nuking the moon, Frieza nuking Planet Vegeta in the backstory off panel, Freeza coring Namek, and Kid Buu nuking Earth hundreds of chapters later. I understand most people aren't familiar with the manga over the anime, but the pre-Super canon has just as much garbage for feats in terms of quantity as any franchise out there.
But Gram as wielded by Sigurd being as powerful as the sun? It doesn't quite make as much sense.
Why not? Gaps between the tiers are a poorly kept illusion at best in the franchise (most franchises really) anyway. This has been an issue since FSN and FHA, it hasn't gone away.
No, I simply assumed that Nrvnqsr Chaos was the other kind of DAA, the one with so much HP that could withstand Excalibur.
Why would you asume that when his entire schtick is he's a composite of 666 lives made of discount Chaos Tide? That's not HP, that's just having a bunch of stored regenerating 1Up Mushrooms.
EMIYA outright says that Gae Bolg surpasses its original, Gungnir.

If you want to interprete that it means Gae Bolg only surpasses Gungnir specifically in the capacity of penetrating Aias and nothing else, then be my guest. But that's a tough pill to swallow considering that according to your logic Gungnir would be as powerful as the sun.
It doesn't matter for Odin, it matters for Gae Bolg because it being as powerful as the sun is nonsensical.
I'm not understanding your incredulity, maybe beyond the fact you just restrict yourself to a limited number of franchises. This is a common issue, your cognitive dissonance is noted, but irrelevant. This hobby doesn't actually work, its just the logical conclusion to how we personally cobble it together here. We don't ignore the issue, we embrace it so that our conclusions can pretend to stand on their own merits per community guides.
Neither Artoria or Quetzalcoatl are capable of destroying Tiamat's Chaos Tide, the goddess herself says that she could only do a small permiter around her. And the Grail Mud may be referred as being the same as the Sea of Life, but the amount that Tiamat spawned is incomparable to the small quantity that Excalibur destroyed.
He means in comparison to the vastly lesser quantity and quality that composes Nrvnqsr Chaos compared to the actual lake of it Saber nuked (Nvrnqsr Chaos has at best shown he can spread his surface area only thin enough to cover maybe a couple dozen meters with his 500 lives shit) and the several dozen kilometers of it Quetz had sustain a continuous nuke over. Nrvnqsr Chaos is the benchmark, not Tiamat

Tiamat was compared to AAS at her weakest in terms of what's required to completely wipe her out. AAS was compared to both a Supernova and is a vastly stronger NP than Ars Paulina, which is a Small Galaxy sized model (single cell vs whole body comparison Davinci made. Body has a few trillion cells compared to the several trillion galaxies present in our observable universe) of the universe powered by Solomon corpse's circuits.
 
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You new here? Welcome to VS debating, where one to two feats can end up carrying an entire verse.
Think he's an old head from Beast's Lair or something?

Dunno

In general, most people that stick to their niche struggle to discuss inter-series bullshit because they fail to standardize their criteria

By standardizing shit, the picture of many franchises starts to look fucking silly. Like, the Saiyans being a race of planet killers sounds fucking stupid, but that's apparently just how they exist and they somehow avoided reducing their home to space debris long enough for the evil alien real estate agent to do it for them for the lazy space god cat
 
Sorry for the absence so I'll add my 2 cents as well since I was watching streams.

No, he didn't. He literally doesn't name drop a single DAA in that quote.

Doesn't need to? We know full well Nvrsqr is explicitly described as one of the beings Artoria can kill exactly by how Nasu stated it. If he wasn't, Nasu would have straight up said it by name. If anything, he's most likely bringing up ORT as the main example considering how bullshit it's supposed to be and canonically is.

If you want to interpret that it means Gae Bolg only surpasses Gungnir specifically in the capacity of penetrating Aias and nothing else, then be my guest. But that's a tough pill to swallow considering that according to your logic Gungnir would be as powerful as the sun.

It doesn't matter for Odin, it matters for Gae Bolg because it being as powerful as the sun is nonsensical.

You know what? If it is ridiculous and that's supposed to be the actual case? Then there you go. It's not the first nor the last time this happened to series like this(Look at how Bleach works in any real capacity VS. wise vs. how it's seen in it's own series and it's obvious right then and there). If we are going with Soaring Gae Bolg = Gungnir and Gungnir is Star level, then that is what Gae Bolg is too. It's not even all that impossible to fathom either as Cu is the Son of Lugh Lambfada who is a Sun God in the Nasuverse lore. And Sun Gods are supposed to be WAY stronger than their equivalent Divine Spirits(Which is why most of them are Demiurge Tier to begin with like Quetzalcoatl and Amaterasu)

"represents the rays of heat from the sun"
"which is like the rays of heat from the sun"

These are similes, not literal statements.

So you missed the part where it explicitly states it's a "radiation type Noble Phantasm" with a "Pseudo-Sun" inside?
Excalibur Galatine.
Gawain's Anti-Army Noble Phantasm. A Pseudo-Sun is contained in the hilt.

Unlike Excalibur's centralized attack, Galatine is a broad wave, radiation-type attack that completely annihilates the enemy army.


That would still matter... heavily.

How is that proof that Galatine is as powerful as the sun?

Considering the fact that the Pyramid is made from Ozymandias and Ancient Egypt, giving it alot of Mystery and Mana? It's not hard to gauge when we know that ANYTHING that is touched by a Heroic Spirit or as a byproduct can hurt other Heroic Spirits and actually is given weight and mass among other things:
Five eyes, located in various places on Berserker’s shoulders, neck and abdomen, all turned to glare at Archer of Red and Ruler. The two female Servants instantly separated to the left and right respectively as if flicked away. Not caring about that, Berserker of Red swung his sword with all his might.


Pieces of the ground that he blew away and smashed apart flew at Ruler and Archer like high-explosive projectiles.


“Guh—!”


“Kuh…!!”


Rocks tore through their skin and even damaged part of Ruler’s armor. An attack without prana accompanying it could never harm a Servant. But prana had been loaded to the point of bursting into the sword he swung, and it had even contaminated the broken pieces of stone.


It was the same as a Servant throwing dirks with prana loaded into them… Though, it was the first time Ruler had witnessed of the phenomenon of prana clinging even to fragments smashed apart with a sword.

So why WOULDN'T that matter how easily they are burning under Excalibur Galatine?

How much weaker do you think Sieg's Balmung is than the real Siegfried? Because even if it was a hundred times weaker (a massive high ball) if would still give Clarent an absurd level of power, if Balmung's full power was truly equal to the sun's.

How much weaker it was?
The fact that the very first use basically reduced him right back to Siegfried and even Mordred knew it was a half-assed one? Considering the fact they never clashed like that again speaks volumes she would be dead the next time due to the Anti-Dragon capabilities.
The fact that both the Sub and the Dub of the Anime Apocrypha Battle:


And the Apocrypha Materials even say the same deal:
Fate/Apocrypha material - Encyclopedia: Dragon Revelation Command Spells [Others], p.176 [T]
Dragon Revelation Command Spells [Others]
Dead Count Shapeshifter. The unique Command Spells engraved on Sieg. They can also be used as normal Command Spells, but there was absolutely no need for Sieg to force Astolfo to do anything with a Command Spell, so he used them all to turn himself into Siegfried. To explain it simply, they basically let Sieg summon Siegfried every time he uses one. The catalyst is Siegfried’s living heart. However, while Siegfried’s body could withstand the dragon blood within it, Sieg’s body can’t. That is reason that the spots on Sieg’s hand where the Command Spells disappeared from turned black. Even after he used them all up, power Sieg obtained from Frankenstein’s “Blasted Tree: Lightning Branch of Crucifixion” managed to barely maintain his human form, but that too was used up when Sieg used this Noble Phantasm at the end.

And that was AFTER all of the extra boosts he gotten, including Galvanism. So yes, the actual power output may actually be far, far weaker than it is under Sieg because that completely misses that all Clarent Blood Arthur is Mordred's Mana Burst being amplified to a ridiculous extent to work as a Beam equivalent(Which Mordred never clashed with Siegfried or Karna or anyone to truly matched that up, just Semiramis' barrier which blocked it perfectly).

It's not like Nero is the only Servant that faces Galatine's power without being incinerated: Lancelot, Mash, Bedivere, etc.

Hmmm considering Lancelot's Armor is the main reason he can survive being ran over by Iskandar's Bulls? You know, those same Bulls that with a single step of expending Lightning is the equivalent of Artoria and Diamuird's attack power?
The power of the lightning Iskander’s Gordius Wheel expels is equal to what Artoria or Diarmuid could if they unleashed every single ounce of their strength

No, the chariot was not merely floating in air. Its wheels boomed loudly; it was not solid ground but lightning that the bulls stood upon.

Every time the bulls' hooves and the chariot 'stomped' upon the empty sky, violet lightning spread like a web, rolling the air upwards with deafening roars. The prana spurting from the lightning was probably what Lancer and Saber can only unleash if they use up every single ounce of their strength.

And they legit have a connection to Zeus? That Zeus. Yeah, that kinda makes Lancelot's Armor far more ridiculous than people think:
It was a thunderbolt that suddenly visited the battlefield. It had the dizzying flash of lightning that contrived to make night into day, and a roar that boomed greater than any thunder.

"Aaalalalalalalaie!"

The lightning didn’t descend from the sky, but traversed across the ground. No – that thing that looked like lightning was the galloping chariot entangled by escaping electricity.

Lancer quickly flipped backwards and avoided the chariot in time. But for Berserker, who kept all his attention of Saber, he didn’t even have time to turn around and register what was going on.

Accompanying Rider’s war cry, the two divine bulls first kicked the black knight to the ground with their four front hooves, and then trampled the black knight mercilessly with their four hind hooves. Each hoof was enveloped with rolling purple lightning; just one kick would have been a very heavy hit. The divine bulls trampled upon Berserker eight times overall and his wounds must have been fatal. After Rider’s chariot roared past, Berserker didn’t even have the strength to stand. The figure with the black armour lied face up on the ground.

Rider sat on the stopped chariot and gazed down at his utterly defeated enemy. His spirited face was covered with smiles.

" – Oh? What happened to you, one with such a backbone?"

Berserker wasn’t dead yet. His body twitched feebly, and he slowly rose up from the ground. The black knight, who was stomped upon by the divine bulls, finally managed to bend his body around and crawl away from the chariot’s path. He had noticed Rider, and luckily avoided the decisive maximum impact of the chariot wheels.

This also ignores Arodnight buffs up his stats by one.
Mash has Lord Chaldeas and Camelot and considering that AAS would be far hotter than the Surface of the Sun...
And Bedivere was buffed over by Excalibur to the point we knew he was from Mordred could destroy him easily to him actually matching her completely so that would include the fact of it also buffing him.

Neither Artoria or Quetzalcoatl are capable of destroying Tiamat's Chaos Tide, the goddess herself says that she could only do a small permiter around her. And the Grail Mud may be referred as being the same as the Sea of Life, but the amount that Tiamat spawned is incomparable to the small quantity that Excalibur destroyed.

That's not what I was saying because destroying the Primordial Sea itself at all is the feat. That's exactly why Ushi Alter explicitly stated you needed something like AAS because the point of it and the point of why Quetz used it wasn't to destroy ALL of the Primordial Sea, it was to stop Tiamat from easily moving using it which went fubar when she could effortlessly regenerate it.
Again, Nvrsqr requires Continental Destruction despite his mass of it would barely cover the park he and Arcuied is fighting in, why would it be different for the Grail Mud(Which only covered the Lake in Fuyuki) or the Primordial Sea?
 
You new here? Welcome to VS debating, where one to two feats can end up carrying an entire verse.

He's not new at all, as CT stated, he's basically someone who has been around the circuit alot and is primarily at Spacebattles now.
This has always been the most recurring problem because well, you end up with guys like him that says one thing entirely versus how the story states it and then how versus debaters apply it.

As you stated yourself, 1-2 feats can literally carry an entire verse, no matter how nonsensical it is(DBZ does it for example even now, same with Bleach) and he ignores how the feats are done here. We don't judge things on consistency alone or no feat would ever be accepted because what's the fucking point?
But we equally don't take outliers themselves as the truth which is why we take things in the middle.
It's why we have Fate where it is because that's ultimately precisely where it is not from favoritism, but from explicit feats.

If he wants to blame someone, blame Kinoko Nasu as it's been pretty blatantly clear as of late where the series stands now due to the latest shit(Berserker Musashi and Archer Jeanne D'Arc canonically summons an entire Ocean as a byproduct of their Noble Phantasms, Tristan and Mordred can easily cut destroy huge segments of rock with ease without using full power. Surtr-Sigurd is basically Sigurd but completely retarded and not using anything but a Death Rune and virtually murking everyone including Brynhildr, Wodime's Animus Animusphere makes Zeus see him as an equal and puts him beyond the Gods and Rhongomyniad is still stronger than it. Barghest can kick Tristan's ass easy and even no sell a TNR Failnaught and Alter Ego Muramasa kicks her and Sith's asses and loses to Melusine and Morgan as a Servant is at a 3rd of the power of Lostbelt Morgan which would absolutely make her Planetary-Large Planetary and potentially even higher considering having access to power 12 Rhongobongos is no fucking joke).
 
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As someone else stated in this topic, Hisagi never really grew THAT much stronger as the biggest problem with Tokinada's Zanpaktou is that it only operates on his reiatsu for the copied effect meaning it's hard to say if he even matches Byakuya after the Royal Guard Arc.
And his Bankai is overrated. Tousen should be able to still defeat him anyway long as he isn't PIS or CIS due to regaining his sight.


Man, they really keep thinking the past Espada mean something, do they? Grimmjow after his buffs was effortlessly laid out by Askin and Harribel was definitely stronger than before which was why Yhwach had to deal with her and then there's Neliel... but they are the only ones that really scale at all.
Ulquirroa would explicitly get dusted.
 

Skimmed through the last 2-3 pages at the end:
Thomas_Had_Never_Seen_Such_Bullshit_Before.jpg


The disrespect to Lostbelt Zeus is fucking unreal for this bullshit with Fiamma to even pretend the latter has a chance.
"What does Anti-Concept Mean? What are these Authorities supposed to do to Fiamma? Can you correlate them to anything?!"
Lostbelt Zeus would literally disintegrate Fiamma, atom by atom using his various Authorities gained by the Olympians or straight up just use Aphrodite's and cause him to go completely crazy.

It's absolutely hilarious they can't understand the concept of Anti-Concept when you can literally understand what the definition of a concept is with a simple google search:
an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances

It would mean Lostbelt Zeus has the ability to attack and destroy the Concept of Fiamma BEING the Holy Right in the first damn place and leave him virtually powerless. This isn't including Zeus can attack Space Time itself(And thus Fiamma wouldn't even EXIST) and have attacks that can destroy the entire Solar System/Galaxy.
 

I get exactly what he's talking about but it's honestly hilarious he uses "Faster Than The Eye" when again, this very feat we see is far BEYOND Faster Than The Eye:


Like the rest of the responses after this isn't better in the slightest but it's absolutely hilarious that people here legit keeps thinking All Might scales to this... he absolutely DOESN'T, in any capacity. Not in strength, speed or durability.
 
Why not? Gaps between the tiers are a poorly kept illusion at best in the franchise (most franchises really) anyway. This has been an issue since FSN and FHA, it hasn't gone away.
Because Sigurd wielding Gram is not that powerful of an attack, much more powerful beings with stronger weapons than Gram are considerably weaker than the sun.
Why would you asume that when his entire schtick is he's a composite of 666 lives made of discount Chaos Tide? That's not HP, that's just having a bunch of stored regenerating 1Up Mushrooms.
Nrvnqsr's lives don't actually work as 1Up's as God Hand's lives do. They serve as one gigantic HP bar that must be depleted all at once to finally kill him.
Doesn't need to? We know full well Nvrsqr is explicitly described as one of the beings Artoria can kill exactly by how Nasu stated it. If he wasn't, Nasu would have straight up said it by name.
That's not how the word explicitly works, no.
You know what? If it is ridiculous and that's supposed to be the actual case? Then there you go. It's not the first nor the last time this happened to series like this(Look at how Bleach works in any real capacity VS. wise vs. how it's seen in it's own series and it's obvious right then and there). If we are going with Soaring Gae Bolg = Gungnir and Gungnir is Star level, then that is what Gae Bolg is too. It's not even all that impossible to fathom either as Cu is the Son of Lugh Lambfada who is a Sun God in the Nasuverse lore. And Sun Gods are supposed to be WAY stronger than their equivalent Divine Spirits(Which is why most of them are Demiurge Tier to begin with like Quetzalcoatl and Amaterasu)
It's ridiculous because we know for a fact that stronger things than Gae Bolg are weaker than the sun.
He means in comparison to the vastly lesser quantity and quality that composes Nrvnqsr Chaos compared to the actual lake of it Saber nuked (Nvrnqsr Chaos has at best shown he can spread his surface area only thin enough to cover maybe a couple dozen meters with his 500 lives shit) and the several dozen kilometers of it Quetz had sustain a continuous nuke over. Nrvnqsr Chaos is the benchmark, not Tiamat
Excalibur being able to destroy a larger quantity of Grail Mud does not give it the ability to destroy Nrvnqsr's Soil of Genesis. To begin with both Nrvnqsr and Nasu said that even at full strength/a serious Arcueid would not be able to kill him. Let's assume that this means 30% Arc and not 100%. 30% Arc is stated by Nasu to have the firepower of 4 Servants, by comparison Gilgamesh is stated to have the firepower of 5 Servants. Gil is also stated to be above even Saber Alter and Artoria as a living human in firepower.

These statements do not match up with the idea of Excalibur being able to destroy the Soil of Genesis, which only needs enough power to destroy a continent, and thus also restricts Gram from being as powerful as the sun.
So you missed the part where it explicitly states it's a "radiation type Noble Phantasm" with a "Pseudo-Sun" inside?
Excalibur Galatine.
Gawain's Anti-Army Noble Phantasm. A Pseudo-Sun is contained in the hilt.

Unlike Excalibur's centralized attack, Galatine is a broad wave, radiation-type attack that completely annihilates the enemy army.


That would still matter... heavily.
A pseudo-sun, which means explicitly not a real one. And emitting radiation doesn't mean it's on the same level as the sun.
Considering the fact that the Pyramid is made from Ozymandias and Ancient Egypt, giving it alot of Mystery and Mana? It's not hard to gauge when we know that ANYTHING that is touched by a Heroic Spirit or as a byproduct can hurt other Heroic Spirits and actually is given weight and mass among other things:
Yes, that tells us it is impressive for Galatine to be able to do that. How is that proof Galatine is as powerful as the sun for being able to do that?
And that was AFTER all of the extra boosts he gotten, including Galvanism. So yes, the actual power output may actually be far, far weaker than it is under Sieg because that completely misses that all Clarent Blood Arthur is Mordred's Mana Burst being amplified to a ridiculous extent to work as a Beam equivalent(Which Mordred never clashed with Siegfried or Karna or anyone to truly matched that up, just Semiramis' barrier which blocked it perfectly).
Again, even if Clarent is a 100 times weaker than Balmung's full power (which you have no way to prove and sounds ridiculous) it would still have nonsensical amounts of energy if Balmung really were as powerful as the sun.
And they legit have a connection to Zeus? That Zeus. Yeah, that kinda makes Lancelot's Armor far more ridiculous than people think:
Are you really here trying to scale Lancelot's armor to Zeus' lightning bolts?
Mash has Lord Chaldeas and Camelot and considering that AAS would be far hotter than the Surface of the Sun...
What blocked Excalibur and Galatine was Lord Chaldeas. What blocked AAS was Lord Camelot. The weaker defense does not receive scaling from the stronger one.
And Bedivere was buffed over by Excalibur to the point we knew he was from Mordred could destroy him easily to him actually matching her completely so that would include the fact of it also buffing him.
You mean the buff from Excalibur that still doesn't make him capable of withstanding energy on the level of the sun,
 
A pseudo-sun, which means explicitly not a real one. And emitting radiation doesn't mean it's on the same level as the sun.

This is grasping at straws so badly, it becomes sad. It doesn't need to be a full star to exhibit the points of a star, do we do that to Neutron Stars or White Dwarfs? Because if we don't, I don't see how that disqualifies Excalibur Galatine when that fits the very point of what the weapon does.

Yes, that tells us it is impressive for Galatine to be able to do that. How is that proof Galatine is as powerful as the sun for being able to do that?

Um yes? Unless you actually believe the shit made from Ancient Egypt in the Nasuverse that has enough energy to channel huge sums of mana to either fire a beam of energy equivalent enough to rival a solar flare BEFORE being further amped by the entire Egyptian Pantheon or being able to shield it to the point that even the Incineration of Humanity can't even SCRATCH IT... is just normal ass rocks.

Again, even if Clarent is a 100 times weaker than Balmung's full power (which you have no way to prove and sounds ridiculous) it would still have nonsensical amounts of energy if Balmung really were as powerful as the sun.

No it wouldn't because you are basically going off on whether or not Sieg even had any level of control or power over Balmung which he explicitly did not have access to. This also ignores the hilarious nature that basically Mordred and Sieg's Noble Phantasms never actually clashed, they either just exploded on each other(in the anime) or the special nature of how Balmung works means they just got hit by their attacks dead on(In the LN). Either way, it's pointless because it's clearly obvious in their one fight, Balmung from Sieg was barely anything worth a damn because he had no idea on how to even use Servant abilities.

Are you really here trying to scale Lancelot's armor to Zeus' lightning bolts?

Lostbelt Zeus isn't Proper Human History Zeus and considering the Divine Bulls that pull Iskandar's Chariot is very much based on the Divine Bull Zeus became to Europa?
Fate/Zero Volume 4 said:
God Bull: Air-walking Thunder Bull
The divine bulls that pull the Gordias Wheel. It is said that before the seduction of Europa, the supreme god of thunder Zeus changed his shape into that of a bull. Therefore, what manifested as the driving force of the chariot dedicated to Zeus, were Divine Beasts with a connection to Zeus.

And Iskandar is primarily fueled by the myth that he is Zeus's kid(To the point he can throw Lightning bolts at people even as Alexander?), this isn't unbelievable in the slightest.

What blocked Excalibur and Galatine was Lord Chaldeas. What blocked AAS was Lord Camelot. The weaker defense does not receive scaling from the stronger one.

Considering Lord Chaldeas works just like Lord Camelot except on a weaker level, it's exactly the same shit. It blocked an Excalibur Morgan from a Saber Alter to see if they was worthy or not, the fuck is the point to go by "how did it block Galatine then?" at that point?

You mean the buff from Excalibur that still doesn't make him capable of withstanding energy on the level of the sun,

Except it still did? You forget Servants have shown ridiculous abilities to withstand extreme levels of heat:
oXN5zuF.jpg


Holmes even states exactly that and Surtr is far, far fucking hotter than that(especially with Laeventienn) which again points to the fact that you really do not understand why we put them where we do at all.
 

At this point, I'm not sure if people are taking the piss on purpose or being serious anymore...


Oh boy, I can see this turning out well...
Death Knight wins pretty easily. Significantly stronger, faster, and more durable. Survivability allows it to withstand complete destruction of the head and chest cavity, and it has infinite stamina.

In r2 it looses the speed advantage and the horse lets the Tree Sentinel be more mobile but that doesn't negate all the other advantages the fellow has.

Spoke too soon...


Seriously getting extremely disrespectful...


Wow, we have the cast and crew say that Quicksilver is moving at the Speed of Sound, that must mean he IS! Let's ignore the fact that Carol since can move fast enough to go well past the SoS and into FTL at the end of her movie and again, no one else has any issues reacting to her...
 
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