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Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 5: Diamonds are fleeting. Stupid lasts forever
- Thread starter Masterblack06
- Start date
Xcano
Illustrious
No, because I think it obviously does. I think you're getting hung up on like, the direct drawing of ki out of things and the idea that characters "need fuel to move". Remember, all ki is as a concept is just a mythological idea of health and bodily energy. When they say "ki comes from the body" this isn't contradictory or new information, it's just what Taoism is. You draw ki in, internalize it, and then it flows back out as you expend energy. Heat is ki, sound is ki, electricity is ki, and so is the dirt and the sky and the Sun and all other things. Moro is a blatant example of this, in that his power to "manipulate the ki of planets" primarily manifests in summoning magma from the ground.
When I say "Goku gets ki from the environment", what I mean is that he eats and breathes. If he was strangled he'd end up dying. Some animals might get the same ki through different means (fish don't breathe air), but it's still the same stuff. If you want, just ignore "ki" as a word (though, again, it's the same word as "air") and just replace it with "life force". Goku gets "life force" from eating fish. He's born with his own life force, presumably inherited through whatever metaphysical hoopla, and he can gain life force and increase his flow of life force by training and eating and all sorts of things. Even characters like Frieza, who don't need to breathe to live, still huff and puff when they're tired, and doing so will eventually return them to full strength.
Personally, I think this is just because "the ki is directly in the air/food/water/whatever", and so intaking those things increases/replenishes the stores of ki in the body (whereas something like the Spirit Bomb is directly drawing ki throughout everything, not just what's immediately available for consumption). You might think that instead ki is stored in the cells and breathing allows the cells to produce ki through some strange biological function. I think these are ultimately resulting in the same point, though, which is that access to ki/power relies on access to environmental factors. If Goku was teleported into a world without ki he wouldn't just immediately die and lose all of his powers, but he also wouldn't have a way to keep expending ki once he ran out.
(You can see the same ideas in Naruto, for that matter. Hell, it's even in Kung Fu Panda lol. Master Oogway wouldn't just collapse if he was brought to a desert, but I also imagine he'd have a lot less chi to use)
Oh yeah man, I'm sure you were really invested in improving your opinion of me in the "Circus of Humorous and Humiliating Arguments Part 5: Stupid Lasts Forever" thread. I'm sure if I go through your account I won't find countless examples of you and most everyone else in here endlessly insulting whoever happens to be annoying that day.
They don't get Ki in that fashion from breathing in the air... and the fashion that they get "Ki" from food is literally no different than us gaining energy from food... because that's literally what DB training is at the end of the day:
It's just real life training with Chi as a basis.
The fact you are literally pulling shit with Goji about "Dragon Veins/Leylines" from a series that literally does not have those concepts is absolutely hilarious. The only time they ever pull Ki from anything for their attacks... is JUST the Spirit Bomb... and look at how well one drawn from Earth(Vegeta) and one drawn from the Solar System(Frieza) did...
Oh wait.
Problem is your arguing Ki mattering to everything when it’s really only just for the basic body functions.
To really nip this in the bud, dead characters that are only souls possess all the power they had before while no longer needing to eat or sleep such as Frieza when we see him in hell, Goku in Other World where he became stronger dead than he was alive during the Cell games, etc
Yeah, I wonder why people say that.
It's almost like he has.. a spell that literally lets him create real big bangs. and it's not noted as some sort of outlier in terms of his general capabilities
Skimming down for brevity but....
This literally happens in the ToP. The entire fight takes place in an empty void, and the characters proceed to generate more ki during the clash than at any other point in the series until then. We see multiple character grow vastly beyond their starting points when they entered despite having nothing around to draw on.
This literally happens in the ToP. The entire fight takes place in an empty void, and the characters proceed to generate more ki during the clash than at any other point in the series until then. We see multiple character grow vastly beyond their starting points when they entered despite having nothing around to draw on.
Sasuga
Also, and this is just stacking on to what others have said about souls, but Goku getting a physical body again made him weaker in the Buu arc. He tried to build up Ki to kill Kid Buu but burned out because his phsyical body was more limited than just being a soul.
Mr.OMG
Distinguished
I want to see this world burn, so let the machine judge us.
▎Counterargument
While I appreciate your perspective on ki as a concept intertwined with bodily health and energy, it’s essential to examine the implications of this interpretation more critically. You seem to assert that the concept of ki is merely a reflection of physical sustenance and environmental factors, but this view can be overly simplistic and neglects the depth of the narrative and character development in series like "Dragon Ball."
Firstly, the core of ki as presented in "Dragon Ball" is not merely about physical energy derived from eating, breathing, or environmental input. Characters like Goku demonstrate extraordinary feats that suggest a deeper, inherent power. For instance, Goku's ability to tap into Ultra Instinct or harness the Spirit Bomb transcends simple consumption of resources; it involves spiritual awareness, mastery over energy manipulation, and mental focus. This complexity indicates that ki should be seen not just as a life force derived from the environment but as a unique ability that evolves with a character’s understanding of their own potential and limits.
Secondly, your assertion that if Goku were in a ki-less world, he would lose his powers only gradually underplays how intertwined his abilities are with his mastery over ki itself. It is shown throughout the series that characters can achieve new levels of power through rigorous training and introspection, which suggests that ki is not just something that is consumed like food or air. Rather, it emphasizes the role of personal growth and experience in harnessing and amplifying ki. Goku’s journey is as much about inner strength and discipline as it is about external factors, highlighting the philosophical undertones of martial arts, which stress the importance of mindset and dedication.
Moreover, the comparison to characters in other series, such as Naruto or Kung Fu Panda, seems to reinforce the notion that ki and chi represent more than just environmental resources. In these narratives, characters often draw upon internal reserves or spiritual connections that allow them to perform feats beyond mere physical limitations. This suggests that while environmental factors may influence a character's abilities, the essence of those abilities often lies within the characters themselves—their determination, spirit, and understanding of their power.
In conclusion, while environmental factors and physical sustenance are certainly part of the equation, downplaying the intrinsic nature of ki and its connection to personal growth and mastery leads to an incomplete understanding of its role in these narratives. Ki represents not just the fuel for characters' abilities but also a metaphor for their inner journeys and the philosophical teachings embedded in martial arts traditions. Thus, to fully appreciate the complexities of ki and its portrayal in various anime, one must consider both the external and internal dimensions of power.
Xcano
Illustrious
I don't think this is at all surprising, and is again something reflected in Taoism. He's in the afterlife, the realm of gods, and is now a fully spiritual entity untethered from physical limitations. No duh he's stronger, he's in the place with possibly the densest concentration of ki in all reality.
They seem to be breathing just fine. Again, ki = air. It's also probably notable that they fight for all of 48 minutes and this tires them near to the point of death lol.
It's literally 3 paragraphs, I think I'm justified in my previous guesses that you might just be a Cocomelon baby.
God damn Chaptgpt is fucking cooking
Everyone else has been able to keep their arguments to 1 or less and have been able to get their arguments across perfectly.
It sounds like you suffer from a skill issue
He’s also nowhere near his Super self whose alive and in a physical body.
Point I’m making, Goku is no stronger alive or dead because again, his Ki is at a certain level he’s achieved by training.
The World of Void is an extradimensional plane without normal spacetime. There literally isn't anything there aside from what the Grand Priest and the Zeno's create.
And they run out of energy, recover, and then exceed the original amount of energy they have. Again, multiple characters exceed whatever their peak was before this point while still inside the void.
Hell, Goku in particular runs out of energy multiple times and then recovers stronger than before.
It went for the full 3 Course Cuisine when all we needed was a fucking cheeseburger
...How does that apply when Goku was primarily fighting on Earth as a Soul? I know you will ignore this like everything else I stated but please humor us.
Ki doesn't come from the air again, that's literal headcanon...
Ki comes from the Soul and energy from food sources can help replenish it no different than how it does in real life...
Xcano
Illustrious
Okay, "you are retarded, possibly clinically".
Sure, and how did Super Goku get so strong? By aligning the ki of 6 Super Saiyans and drawing that into himself, hitting heights he wouldn't have hit otherwise.
I'm not really sure what your point is here. You say that Goku getting stronger without a body is a counter-point, but then also say he gets stronger in his body anyways. Which is it?
Yeah, and what they made was "an atmosphere". Again, air = ki. Can't say it anymore than I have.
You do know you just shot your whole argument in the foot by admitting that Ki is not from the environment but is a spiritual source and therefore it has nothing to do with external factors?
That was a short cut because of how urgently he needed to fight Beerus, Vegeta achirped it through training as shown later on, several characters go on to match Goku and Vegeta, no death or needing power from others required.
That the environment isn’t this huge factor your mentioning since he both fights and trains just fine as a disembodied soul without any need for sleeping or eating
Considering he ignored me ever since he insulted me should have put that out there but to be frank, I just find it hilarious SB is still that assblasted about my existence
I guess they still cannot fathom at all that maybe... I'm right plenty of times but they can't handle it so they just go full onto "He's wrong all the time" which just makes this funnier to me.