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Misconceptions about VS. Debating
- Thread starter Xhominid The Apex
- Start date
the wiki definition is that it includes all levels of infinity, but that basically doesn’t help you at all to actually determine where characters within that bracket would fall. Also nobody actually USED it like that we just simplified it to “more than one multiverse” which isn’t mathematically accurateDeath Metal made everything Canon you mean
i feel you. Megaversal itself just sounds kinda dumb off rip
in the multiversal bracket it’s simpler because you are going by 2-infinite amount of universes. Anyone can understand that. Megaversal is the big problem here.
then it has omniversal as “beyond all levels of infinity” which is basically suggsverse lite or just claiming a character is omnipotent which has never been accepted.
You also have to be sure not to overcomplicate it with shit that most people wont understand.
well thats the goal right? i think people have been trying to revise this particular part of the scaling chain for almost 10 years but it never quite gets there 
Yeah i've noticed that try as we might, shit always ends up sounding like some crazy shitwell thats the goal right? i think people have been trying to revise this particular part of the scaling chain for almost 10 years but it never quite gets there
As I understand and without complicating so much.
Infinite velocity would be to travel a distance in time 0 (by velocity and not by hax of time) or to travel an infinite distance.
But an immeasurable speed would be that it does the same thing previously said, but that it can be in the past, present and future thanks to its speed.
I think one is like being omnipresent only in the "present" and the other is being omnipresent in "the past, present and future".
Type-Rey
Retired
Well... let's see ... maybe it's the fact that
You're choosing to single out calcs as being fan theory when this entire hobby is actual fan theory cause we're discussing fiction . The only thing calcs do is help us quantify shit which in turn help us connect dots, scale, etc. It's just a tool . Nothing more. Sure, some people do only concentrate on that but .. sometimes, it's all they need. If they ignore context or other shit, it's their fault , not the calcs's fault for existing.
That covers the hypocritical part.
The stupid part is covered by your stance is also based on the supposition that calcs are wrong because people can be wrong, not that hey can actually be right or relative more right about what is being discussed.
Places who take calcs seriously , like this one, have processes set in place so that not every calc that is shat out is immediately agreed upon by the people who can't help but clap like seals. If anything, the ratio between immediately accepted calcs and the unnacepted or modified ones are skewed in the favor of the latter.
But yeah, i suppose you can eyeball the actual results someone would get from someone vaporizing a chunk of rock vs just pulverizing it . You Spergbattlers are just smart that way. Geniuses without the societal recognition
Which is why most of you actually believe something like Fate is still Stable lvls and constipated sloth lvs in speed.
Salfarc
Paramount
Those are not hypocritical. Hypocritical would be if I allow calcs from Fate but not from the others. Or if I use calcs myself but not allow other people to use it. Just because this is a fan hobby doesn't mean you need to rely on fan theory. Use other fandom for example, ppl making fan theory that Rinoa is Ultimecia is stupid even before being debunked by the developer...Which the dev eventually back down on that being not entirely sure. That is different than believe Rinoa can use Sorceress power that the game itself shows.
If someone can prove the calcs are correct, then sure. Otherwise it is wrong until proven otherwise. Should I just randomly use any numbers and equation just to make a prove? Furthermore as I said; The fan can be wrong in the numbers, the fan can use wrong method, the fan can ignore context, the fan can exaggerate, the fan can downgrade, the fan can simply misunderstand what is happening. Like you can make the calculation that Gilgamesh can destroy entire galaxy, and the calculation can be correct, doesn't mean it is correct in the actual canon.
The last part makes me think you are just wanting to insult SB debater and since I am at SB you decide to insult me, and using this as a reason. It also sounds like you just want something complex as calc as immediately being true without it being questioned the validity of it. What you are arguing here is that you can just use fan theory, then you don't need proves. You can just make any theory.
If your argument is true, you don't need those. You can just use the things provided from the series you are arguing for directly.
Umm...No, While I don't mind joining a debate of Ainz vs Fate, I am scared of actually creating any thread about Ainz vs anything... Idk why I just am.Try creating a topic of demi fiend vs ainz to see spacebattle's reaction
Type-Rey
Retired
Yes , it is.
You can't dismiss the thing you're against on the basis it's fan theory and be ok with anything else when it's still fan theory .
That's one form of hypocrisy which is not applicable here.
It's a fan hobby based on discussing who's fictional daddy has a bigger dick .
It's fan theory .
Don't turn this into a semantic game.
Yes, fan theory based on who a fictional character is as opposed to fan theory on what a character can do in a fight.
Massive difference.
It's not like you can have sub categories or anything.
Don't move the goalposts . Or don't create new goalposts.
You didn't say this originally . You never said this.
You're only saying it now cause i pointed it up.
Not if you want to be taken seriously.
And as i've said. Maybe they don't do any of those things which wouldn't be good for your supposition now , wouldn't it ?
No, if Gil actually performs a feat that is him either destroying a Galaxy or having a feat producing the required yield to destroy a Galaxy or scales to someone who did that, then it's correct. Period.
Death of the author, death of the setting. That's how we operate. We don' t take "it breaks the setting " arguments seriously . Never have , never will.
I don't need a reason to insult SB but it's nice that you keep pitching me fat ones.
Yeah. if only i hadn't mentioned the shit we have in place that makes that unlikely or if i only didn't call calcs just a tool, you'd be right.
Alas...
Today on things "Rey never said " .
Stay tuned for the next exciting episode .
Yeah, which is how you end up with Stable lvls Fate.
Guess i'll stick to what we do, thank you very much.
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Salfarc
Paramount
It isn't. The others are not fan theory. I wouldn't accept them if they are simply fan theory. Unless you are saying something like Goku having a monkey tail as a child is fan theory. In which case you just be wrong. Thats canon. Not fan-theory. You are making false generalization and false of equivalence that everything inside vsdebate are just fan theory. When it can use real canon too.
Scaling can be accepted because it compares feats directly from one character in canon to another. Fan calc are literally that, fan theory.
I am not moving the goalpost, that part of "unless it can be proven true" wasn't even editted. My stance are still the same. All calcs are just fan theory, they are wrong until proven otherwise. I am not accepting any calcs someone use unless that someone can prove the calc to be correct. Hell, this is something I say on Alcides vs Ywhach, unless you have actual prove of expertise, or certificate of something for me to actually believe in you.
Otherwise:
Not to mention the authors most likely doesn't think of all the maths and measurements when they are making the feats.
And what is ironic is that you say "not if you want to be taken seriously" on "Should I just use random number and equation?" and say you are arguing for fan theory...And call me hypocritic despite you being hypocritic there.
SB is not the best, a lot of stupid things there. I agree to that. And I will disagree on using fan-theory. I dislike it when people have to rely on fan-theory. If your stance is that you have to use fan-theory to prove something, thats on you. I wouldn't believe it nor accept it just because you say its true.
Oh and I see a lot of Calcs being thrown around in SB I am one of the few that doesn't like them. SB seems to like them actually.
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Type-Rey
Retired
Repeating something enough times won't make it true.
Sad fact of life.
What others ?
I'm not saying things that have nothing to do with what we're actually discussing. You are.
But i'm not cause i didn't say it.
So, canonicity or lack thereof if the thing that bothers you.
Well, let me just erase your worries since calcs are based on canonical shit that happens in the story.
Nice discussion.
Sure.
No, calcs is a the tool that allows us to better quantify the feats of characters in the story.
It actually complements the scaling.
And again, the calcs are based on canon shit . So , there's literally no issue.
Your original post didn't contain anything that could even imply that.
Your second did, however.
Yes, but now we have different conditionals.
Ok.
Nobody cares .
That's what consensus is for.
However , allow me to creat and speculate on the following scenario : Someone does e calc. The calc is then subjected to the necessary processes and is deemed proven . All good , right ? Here's the catch: The calc in question happens to contradict one of your pre conceived notions brought either by incredulity or by the "canon" or the "setting" . Let's even use your Gil destroying a galaxy example .
What do you do then ? Do you accept it because the calc has been proven or you don't accept even if the calc was provem because it clashes with the "canon" ?
I think i know the answer but i'm not gonna say it cause i want to give you a chance to prove that you're not actually a hypocrite and prove myself wrong for calling you one in the process.
Incredulity is not a legitimate argument against anything, so again, nobody cares.
Can't you do better than "no u ? " . Especially when it is based on a strawman ? At least try.
A lot of stupid people you mean.
For stupid reasons.
Not remotely my stance, as i've said numerous time already.
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I mean, you are saying we shouldn't use fan theory into account and not use calcs... but VS. debates as a whole are literally just fan theory as all they are is basically seeing which character from X franchise can beat character from Y franchise and having to make rules avoiding stuff like NLF, equalization of energy and so on and so forth.
That is literally the entire existence of Fan Theories...
I think you have been on Spacebattles too long to think that all calcs are bad because Spacebattles Calcs these days tend to be absolutely awful(They tend to not even take into account basic shit like Kinetic Energy or even the Speed of the object) as all of the best calc'ers there either left or only touch a select series. Like I can understand if one side uses calcs and the other doesn't as they try and force it to downplay but you can easily tell a terrible SB Calc done in bad faith because that's what they tend to do all the time but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater either.
Salfarc
Paramount
Yes I agree, repeating something won't make it come true. You repeating the false accusation won't make it come true.
Others? Such as simply using the canon feats? Instead of needing to use Fan theory? Have you heard of it? Using canon?
Blind and False accusation doesn't make you correct either. That is the "others". Goku having monkey tails as a baby is canonical. Things you can take like that. Goku using Kamehameha to beat Vegeta's Galick Gun is canonical. So if you say Goku's Kamehameha is stronger than another attack that got beaten by Vegeta's Galick Gun, that is valid. You are simply using feats. But if you use an outside calculation to prove Goku's Kamehameha is stronger than another energy without any canon comparison to, then you are using Fan Theory. You are not directly using the canon to prove. You are using Fan Theory. Wrong until proven otherwise.
Especially worse when this isn't even your theory. Making it harder to prove you really are correct in it.
So many nuance there that make the calcs have to be questioned, first and foremost nuance is that it is unlikely that people write and make stories with those math in mind. And no one is writing with the idea of the balance of their char in VSdebate matchup in minds.
I never said you did, I just say "if you do". Good thing you didn't then.
Not entirely. Someone can make something that come from canon and it still wrong because of so many things.
Like Gilgamesh being multiversal for example. Some take it from canon of Gilgamesh destroying the reality and shows underworld. Or if people take Shirou claiming Herc destroy mountains quite literally.
Or the entire Bleach thing yesterday who argue that Bleach have 3 worlds because in canon they are referred as such...Only for them to actually describe how the world works and turns out its not 3 worlds, but 1 world separated into 3 parts, all connected.
Using parts of canon and ignore all the nuance, context, etc won't make it true. A char can have some Feats that suggest otherwise, and feats can have suggest the intepretation correct. It's not black and white as you suggest. Oh but you probably gonna deny this.
But yes the lack of canon validity is the one that is the problem for me
You denying it won't make it any less wrong. You refusing to acknowledge that there is a problem fan theory won't make it not there. And you know what? Fan-Theory come from canon too. By your logic Fan-Theory are inherently correct. They are not, they are inherently incorrect. Only Canon are correct. Fan-theory based on that canon may not be, may be. They however must be proven to be true, or else they are incorrect.
Though if you can prove the calcs are correct, then it can be used.
Hmmm, well I suppose I can say that first. But I was a bit annoyed and didn't think of saying that. Regardless, I was not moving the goalpost.
People busting out calcs left and right. How are they sure the calculation is really correct?...Especially since the main problem still exist.
Most and maybe all Authors don't write with those maths in mind.
I...think you care enough that you make this an argument to began with.
No. It's not good. Those necessary process seems dubious.
Assuming there really is a necessary process and an actual expertise and authority that deem it proven. There wouldn't be any contradiction by the very virtue of me saying "Unless proven true". And in that situation it is proven true.
Problem comes from people say a calc is true but the process to determined the validity of those claim itself are questionable. How do you know those are true?
Obviously I don't accept it, unless it is really proven to be true...Why does it need to be asked?... I never believe Gil being Galaxy destroyer for example.
Your argument is basically "I think this looks good and smart without any actual legitimate prove why and I want it to be true therefore other people who disagree are wrong."
Incredulity is not legitimate argument to some certain arguments.
This is not one of those.
Your logic implies that if someone want to believe Gil is outversal and pull up some random number, stretch them to fit their point. Then it is true.
Your argument is that nothing need to be really proven with all the relevant informations and expertise put in the question
If you have to rely on Fan-Theory you do you, you won't be right either way.
You denying it won't make it true.
What is this false assumption that entire VS Debate are just fan theory though.... You can literally just use canon and not use Fan Theory. Thats what prove are. You use canon.
Unless you mean Vs.Debate forum in SB? But I'll address this assuming you mean Vs Debate as in the debate itself, not the forum.
If Goku can destroy a star. Then he can destroy Shirou since Shirou don't have any energy to do that. If you argue "well prove the energy need to destroy a star is the same in both universe", then you are just being ridiculous and making exaggerated question just to prove the other person otherwise.
Thats basic logic.
I am not just talking about SB calcs, am also talking about VSbattle calcs, DB calcs, reddit calcs. Even if you argue "well those are just bad calcs" It doesn't change that...Majority of calcs are like that. Though you are quite correct, you point out one of the reason I don't really use calcs there.
If you all rather use calcs, I am not gonna change your mind. Just those are still fan theories in the end, not canon. whether you want to believe it or not is up to you. Thats what I believe, and I believe it because it's a fact.
Again if you can prove it is correct, with all nuances and all informations taken into account, then why not. Most calcs are not like that. Hence, they are wrong until proven otherwise.
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Because if we only limited to what can be used in canon, we would run into NLF's abound and end up with shit like "Sharingan cannot be defeated by anything but another Sharingan user" nonsense... or just see what happens with JJK wank.
I don't really see how the first part doesn't also fit within fan theories because Goku never destroys a Star in canon, hell, it's fan theories that ultimately allows Goku to be atleast Solar System+ alongside his son at the end of the day in DBZ.
Like I get your point, I actually do, we used to have someone who constantly expounds against the overusage of calcs to define a feat but here's the difference:
He only did that because in most cases, you can easily just eyeball the feat and overrelying too hard on calcs has people see them as the only way to debate(Which we had when it came to the most basic shit in the recent Bleach Anime Arc). What you are doing is the exact opposite in that we shouldn't rely on calcs because you can use the canon which... no, you end up with the same problem you see on Spacebattles or VSB all the time. Either absolute terrible calcs that have no basis even pretending they are calcs or we get Complex Multiversal/Dimensional shit because the term is mentioned ONCE and people take it to it's most ridiculous conclusion.
Type-Rey
Retired
Which is fortunate since my accusation isn't false.
I've even proven it.
We've already been through this.
Canon feats ? How do you interpret a character dispersing clouds at crazy speeds without calcs ?
You don't.
Even if you could eyeball it , writing it down and doing the math would only help with the accuracy.
Correct about what ?
If that's the example you're using, you have a fundamental fucked up understanding of how calculations work.
I'd suggest doing the bare minimum research before developing an entire stance on the thing.
So if you know that i don't , why did you brought it up in the first place ?
Yeah, but all of this is not the fault of calculations.
It's the fault of people misunderstanding the context of shit.
If someone uses bad context and set up for a calc, it gets thrown out instantly .
And stop using fucking strawmen. You either can't read or you're purposefully trying to misconstrue what i'm saying, which is expected from a SB-er but try to spare me unless you want more insults your way.
I never claimed analyzing context is black or white , or simple. Not once, because that's not what i was talking about. That's not what we're talking about right now. We're talking about calcs, not what goes on before they get done.
Uh huh,sure.. not let's look at the reasoning :
English please .
Why are you fuckers who come here not capable of speaking it ?
The entire thing is fan theory tho so.. we're back at you being a hypocrite .
That , or you said it because i called you out on it.
You just admitted you did .
They're not.
They assume they are. Other people make sure , which is why they get accepted by the community .
Of course they don't which is why you end up with Supersonic Fate shit despite characters performing feats that are orders of magnitude above that .
Also exactly why we operate on not giving a shit about what an author writes. Because they will contradict themselves . We know and take into account the fact that they will contradict themselves.
I care enough to point out why you're stance is stupid and hypocritical.
I don't care enough about you not believing a calc . Nobody does.
How ?
There is
Also exists.
Of course, it probably doesn't align with your arbitrary conditions but we've already established that nobody cares.
Of course there would be since we've just established that authors don't write with math in mind so they will contradict themselves and as a consequence our calcs will contradict what the setting says.
Answer the question.
You're not only not answering the question, you're moving the goalposts again.
Up until now, the validity of our process never came into question , but now you're laser focused on it . Could it be that you're deflecting ?
I think so.
Becuase i wanted to give you a chance to prove you're not a hypocrite who is at least consistent with their stances .
Unfortunately, you proved without a doubt the exact opposite.
Thanks for proving my point.
There's nothing else to discuss.
Salfarc
Paramount
It is possible, but not entirely the only conclusion. Like the Alchides vs Yhwach yesterday...Err...maybe few days ago I don't remember and don't bother to open the thread again, but anyway like the Alchides vs Yhwach yesterday, using canon for Yhwach means you simply use all the feats he have, and see how it applicable in the vs scenario. He is the walking NLF, and I don't think they make NLF statement anywhere in there, I just think they actually wank what how it is used. Unless you consider that NLF.
Unless you are going to say Yhwach being able to see the future as NLF...In which case I disagree.
I sometimes wonder though if ORT's feat of absorbing and then copying is NLF when applied to other series . I once asked this in ORT vs DXD thread, got a clarification on how ORT actually works but in the end concensus is that its not NLF.
Thats why I said "If". Although you can argue that since Frieza destroy a planet which is a star, and Goku overpower Frieza then he can destroy a star too, thats scaling. Or you can simply change it into, "Goku can tank a rocket, he can tank Shirou's projection of normal sword"
I...never actually touch the "Goku is Solar System" either. I don't disagree though since I've read some arguments about it and it does sounds like its make sense in canon.
Huh someone else actually say it too.
You don't need fan-theories...What you are saying here is that we should depend on Fan-theories instead of actual canonical fact.
Ironically, thats what I think is bad from Spacebattle. They rely too much on fan-theories and headcanon which is also a fan theory over actual canonical facts.
But again, if the calc is really proven to be true and valid. Sure then. Problem will be in how is it proven.
What unfortunate is your accusation is still false. And you prove nothing other than saying "This is because I say so".
Wheres the prove? I mean I can just say I prove you are wrong too I guess.
Then don't quantify it, or just don't use it. Doesn't mean its invalid though. Depending on how crazy the speeds are, you can also gauge how fast are they compared to another speed.
I don't need a calc to gauge that a guy that can disperse country-sized cloud at 2 seconds by moving, moves faster than a guy who run an entire small city in 1 second.
Your logic here is that using math=100% correct. By that point, might as well not use math and just pull out your headcanon statement and say it 100% correct.
Nothing, thats the point.
I suggest using canon feat instead of actually using fan-made theory and fan-made calc but I see you are not bulging.
That one is simplified of what calculation is but that is fancalculation. On related note, there is a calculation on that Cinder and Artoria thread that...actually made here. And I already have problem with it. At least that calculation, I can mention the guy who made it and talk about it here in this thread...Since I remember the guy was here too. But can't in that thread since the guy is not only not involved, but it's also in another site completely.
Just in case you think that in mind.
Then the calcs are still bad.
Oh? Really...
Another thing that piss me off. Is how people like to blurt out the name of fallacy as if they understand what is a fallacy.
Why don't you prove me where did I strawman?
When did I twist your argument and attack something else you didn't argue?
That is what strawman is.
How about you stop ignoring context, how about you stop false generalization, how about you stop false equivalence, how about you stop the ad-hominem, how about you stop the guilt by association?
No really point it out. So far what you are doing is simply saying something is true while being contradiction to the actual truth.
Again you are saying Fan-theory is better than canon. By your logic, there is no need for feats directly from canon in vsdebate. Just use whatever your fan-theories come up with.
You don't have to, your action says you are committing False Dichotomy fallacy. You have proven from your argument that you consider Calcs, the one that is not from canon is the correct one, and the one who says otherwise are incorrect. You are saying that everything are Fan Theory and saying otherwise isn't correct. When in reality many calculation are wrong, and you can prove something without having to resort to it. Meanwhile direct canon can and should be used instead. You didn't imply anywhere that you even consider this point.
And this coming from 4....well 5 of your comments as you are arguing with me.
I don't think you can. You are blind to reason
Why are you fucker coming here without being able to read? I think I am speaking just fine, you are still replying here. But then again you don't read.
What part of it is being hypocrite? point it out. You like saying I am hypocrite but you really didn't prove what part am I hypocritical at. Do you even know what is hypocrite?...
Literally said here that they are just fan-theories too.
Oh wait, are you saying it either have to be "Fan-theories are Correct" or "Fan-theories are Incorrect"? And you say "never claim analyzing context is black and white"? Sure if you are saying you didn't say it directly. It doesn't change that is what you do.
You are...Very blind aint you?...
That and you keep repeating this, as you yourself said, repeating will not make it true.
People like you are the reason why majority of people consider powerscaler as really bad
I even put out the quote where I literally said something similar yesterday or few days ago. Before you even say this.
But ofc, you are blind. You can't see those.
I didn't. You just claim I do.
Where and when did I move the goalpost?
Do you even know what is moving the goalpost? I doubt you do.
And how are you sure this other people making sure, are correct too?
Oh you don't
You just accept they are correct.
Your logic is stupid, and calling me stupid. You are literally in dunning krueger effect.
Then the entire calcs are useless and just fans making them up, thank you very much.
"Nobody cares". Now say, I care. This is what hypocrisy is.
Though, if what you mean is that you are a nobody and you care...Thats correct on technicality I guess...But I doubt you mean that.
And now you contradict yourself again. I already said I don't believe a calc from the start, the very thing you arguing.
Really blind and hypocritical. Calling others hypocritical.
Because there is no actual confirmation if those "necessary process" are truly valid and legitimate?
I guess you never question that. Though then again you did admit you don't care about what author writes. I don't think there is anything else to be talked about here?
Prove it.
Prove it
Yes, I can the same to you...
I did. You just falsely accuse me of hypocrisy, I asked you where and you didn't even prove what I am hypocritical at.
Just saying you prove something doesn't mean you do. Though I guess you are also in denial and delusional about that.
Yea theres nothing else to discuss. You rather believe fan-theories over canon. I rather believe canon.
Ironically, you'd fit well with a lot of Spacebattlers. A lot of ppl love headcanons there, so much that they even say a panel from the manga itself as headcanon. Idk why are you trashtalking SB-ers when you are a lot like them.
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All I'm gonna say is that this is a really stupid thing to try and have gripes over, especially when you think we should only stick to the canon of what's been done when not every feat can be easily eyeballed outside of bare essentials which is not the same at all.
Triple Accel 555
Preeminent
The funny thing is, if we only stick to canon feats, most of the servants should be FTL because there are too many statements to support them.
Meanwhile, the anime/manga version of Dragon Ball should be stuck in unknown speed because there is no statement about how fast the characters are until Dyspho has a statement capable of moving faster than light.
That's what happens in vs battles without calculations.
What do you think about this, @Salfarc?
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This is just pure cope lol
You have any reason to go against his statement? This thread is to point out misconceptions so if you have an issue with his take, then it's best to speak up now so that others can learn from it.