Yeah, I wasn't denying that. Not all Stands are autonomous but there are some that have some level of autonomy or full autonomy. We've just never seen Silver Chariot display any real autonomy outside of getting it's hands on a Stand Arrow.
Misconceptions about VS. Debating
- Thread starter Xhominid The Apex
- Start date
Yeah, I wasn't denying that. Not all Stands are autonomous but there are some that have some level of autonomy or full autonomy. We've just never seen Silver Chariot display any real autonomy outside of getting it's hands on a Stand Arrow.
another thing is the overhyping/exaggerating trend of feats, that try to make them more impressive than they actually are
biggest example? sb and kimetsu, that boulder feat, mean, its like they haven't ever seen other boulder feats in fiction being cuid like that, lmao
and
biggest irony? that boulder feat is small building+ levels at best in ke, i know they have other and better feats that put them in the large building+/city block level+ tier, but you get the point
i know peeps like to headcanon series and downplay others, but at least, if you like to headcanon sb style,''do it'' for a series that has actually impressive feats, no for lesser and weak verses like kimetsu and series of that tier
at least you will get exposed with a bit more style/and effort, whoever does it, lol
biggest example? sb and kimetsu, that boulder feat, mean, its like they haven't ever seen other boulder feats in fiction being cuid like that, lmao
and
biggest irony? that boulder feat is small building+ levels at best in ke, i know they have other and better feats that put them in the large building+/city block level+ tier, but you get the point
i know peeps like to headcanon series and downplay others, but at least, if you like to headcanon sb style,''do it'' for a series that has actually impressive feats, no for lesser and weak verses like kimetsu and series of that tier
at least you will get exposed with a bit more style/and effort, whoever does it, lol
Thought of this one recently
Infinite Speed is as high as you can go when it comes to speed. This "inaccessable" or "Immeasurable" speed is still all literally infinite speed. Cause if your faster than infinite, then it was never infinite to begin with.
Infinite Speed is as high as you can go when it comes to speed. This "inaccessable" or "Immeasurable" speed is still all literally infinite speed. Cause if your faster than infinite, then it was never infinite to begin with.
^fully agree with that on speed. I don’t even really see much of a difference between it and omnipresence as if you can move instantaneously with no time passing, you already have the capability of being everywhere at once. The only thing I would remotely consider “more impressive” is existing beyond time characters but it’s largely semantic as they still aren’t really moving “faster”
I blame vsbwiki for peddling this bullshit
The concept of immeasurable and whatever the fuck speed existed before VSBW, but they sure as shit popularized it, in the modern day, and often have it as a way to wank certain series' speed to levels it's never at, most, if not all the time.
only remotely makes sense if youre considering a character that also exists simultaneously forward/backwards/beyond time etc. otherwise infinite is just…infinite//instnt
not unless you count cardinals of infinity
like... for example, you can count all whole numbers up to infinity (mathematically speaking), {1,2,3,4,5, ...} etc. And there are infinite decimals between each whole numbers (again mathematically speaking), {1.1, 1.2, 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, ...}. So despite both being infinity, the infinity of whole numbers is bigger than the infinity of decimals, and the infinity of decimals would never be able to catch up to the infinity of whole numbers.
At least that's how I think it works, probably should ask @Maddie.
Maddie
Acclaimed
Speed needs to be understood as a matter of displacement vectors. Technically speed is a vector of speed within all traditional degrees of freedom. Speed in the sense of versus debating is a three dimensional variable, because one can displace themselves across the x, y, and z axis.
Higher dimensional characters can displace themselves across different axes, for example a four dimensional character can move across the x,y,z and w axes. When it comes to this, it isn't immeasurable in VSB transcendental terms I guess. This is higher dimensional travel or something, because technically they have a vector going in the w axis that is a given speed. It's just typical three dimensional characters cannot percieve or displace themselves in that distance. The higher dimensional displacement allows a higher dimensional being to move into places a person cannot perceive, and so it is in a sense immeasurable to the perspective of a person who basically just saw someone teleport. However it's not literal immeasurability, that being just moved a certain speed in a unperceivable direction.
Infinite speed is the idea that either you can go infinite distance in a set amount of time, or you can get to any distance in 0 seconds without teleportation. Infinite speed is dealing with the typical degrees of freedom - up, down, left, right, etc. Someone with infinite speed cannot displace time however. Someone with infinite speed across 4 dimensions is not literally immeasurable, they are just infinite on 4 dimensional levels.
However, higher spatial dimensions when unbound are typically larger. You can see this with nsphere volume/radius calculators. However, only an infinite dimensional structure would be infinitely larger. An infinite dimensional character will inherently have infinite speed due to how n-volume works, but otherwise it will just be (quantifiably) larger by a certain algorithmic amount.
What is immeasurable speed then? One needs to understand the difference between spatial dimensions x,y,z,w, etc and temporal dimensions t. Even with infinite speed, you can only displace across anywhere in space. Someone with immeasurable speed can, without specialized hax or relativistic loopholes, physically move across a temporal dimension. You can't calculate someone moving 5 meters in -5 seconds, or 5 meters in 4i seconds. It's immeasurable. That's traditional immeasurable speed. There is another, cardinal immeasurability.
Set theory is the idea that some infinities are larger than others, the set of natural numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6,...) is smaller than the set of all real numbers (Which includes irrational numbers) one is "countable" because you can get from 1 to 2 when counting natural numbers, the other is "inacessible" because you literally can't begin or end if you count uncountable numbers. This explains how fictional universes can do "Our infinity is larger than yours"
If someone is on a transcendentally larger layer that is uncountably infinite, suddenly they are moving at distances we cannot measure. They are immeasurable because they are working on an uncountably larger scale.
At a certain point, I think it's aleph-two? Dimensionality ceases entirely, speed becomes irrelevant because there is no such thing as displacement vectors on that level. What's shown in books or comics is simply transcendental analogues to displacement in terms we can understand. Godsphere is probably Aleph-Two level if we are to believe its ontological nature @Sigismund might need to correct me here. I would wager the Super Spiral Universe is potentially on that level too? IDK @Stocking Anarchy may know. As for Marvel, who is the expert there?
Inaccessibility is a specific level of cardinality beyond alephs. You can have aleph-aleph-aleph-... and never reach inaccessibility which is a very specific mathematical exploit to justify its existence. Realistically, nothing in fiction reaches inaccessibility unless autistically shown, or if they transends mathematics or some shit. Basically, inacessible shouldn't be a term because nothing realistically reaches it
We need better and more specific terms, but this is the gist.
Higher dimensional characters can displace themselves across different axes, for example a four dimensional character can move across the x,y,z and w axes. When it comes to this, it isn't immeasurable in VSB transcendental terms I guess. This is higher dimensional travel or something, because technically they have a vector going in the w axis that is a given speed. It's just typical three dimensional characters cannot percieve or displace themselves in that distance. The higher dimensional displacement allows a higher dimensional being to move into places a person cannot perceive, and so it is in a sense immeasurable to the perspective of a person who basically just saw someone teleport. However it's not literal immeasurability, that being just moved a certain speed in a unperceivable direction.
Infinite speed is the idea that either you can go infinite distance in a set amount of time, or you can get to any distance in 0 seconds without teleportation. Infinite speed is dealing with the typical degrees of freedom - up, down, left, right, etc. Someone with infinite speed cannot displace time however. Someone with infinite speed across 4 dimensions is not literally immeasurable, they are just infinite on 4 dimensional levels.
However, higher spatial dimensions when unbound are typically larger. You can see this with nsphere volume/radius calculators. However, only an infinite dimensional structure would be infinitely larger. An infinite dimensional character will inherently have infinite speed due to how n-volume works, but otherwise it will just be (quantifiably) larger by a certain algorithmic amount.
What is immeasurable speed then? One needs to understand the difference between spatial dimensions x,y,z,w, etc and temporal dimensions t. Even with infinite speed, you can only displace across anywhere in space. Someone with immeasurable speed can, without specialized hax or relativistic loopholes, physically move across a temporal dimension. You can't calculate someone moving 5 meters in -5 seconds, or 5 meters in 4i seconds. It's immeasurable. That's traditional immeasurable speed. There is another, cardinal immeasurability.
Set theory is the idea that some infinities are larger than others, the set of natural numbers (1,2,3,4,5,6,...) is smaller than the set of all real numbers (Which includes irrational numbers) one is "countable" because you can get from 1 to 2 when counting natural numbers, the other is "inacessible" because you literally can't begin or end if you count uncountable numbers. This explains how fictional universes can do "Our infinity is larger than yours"
If someone is on a transcendentally larger layer that is uncountably infinite, suddenly they are moving at distances we cannot measure. They are immeasurable because they are working on an uncountably larger scale.
At a certain point, I think it's aleph-two? Dimensionality ceases entirely, speed becomes irrelevant because there is no such thing as displacement vectors on that level. What's shown in books or comics is simply transcendental analogues to displacement in terms we can understand. Godsphere is probably Aleph-Two level if we are to believe its ontological nature @Sigismund might need to correct me here. I would wager the Super Spiral Universe is potentially on that level too? IDK @Stocking Anarchy may know. As for Marvel, who is the expert there?
Inaccessibility is a specific level of cardinality beyond alephs. You can have aleph-aleph-aleph-... and never reach inaccessibility which is a very specific mathematical exploit to justify its existence. Realistically, nothing in fiction reaches inaccessibility unless autistically shown, or if they transends mathematics or some shit. Basically, inacessible shouldn't be a term because nothing realistically reaches it
We need better and more specific terms, but this is the gist.
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Maddie
Acclaimed
Also quick disclaimer, Mr. Mxy in DC is 5-D but really as Snyder said dimensions are more like governing layers, not geometric dimensions. Feats > statements here. The fifth dimensions is constantly shown as imagination, even if the same issues just claim they are geometric dimensions. In terms of geometric dimensions his feats far exceed that and I would argue is infinite dimensional. As the 5th Dimension and Bleedspace are one in the same.
too complicated. I dont think theres a single verse thats fun to debate that does this shit and it sounds like ASS to try and bring up
We sticking with just regular infinite speed.
Get this gobldigok outta here
We sticking with just regular infinite speed.
Get this gobldigok outta here
Maddie
Acclaimed
Except regular infinite speed is inappropriate for many things. I am saying shit like the New Gods in DC or Outer Gods in the Mythos don't have infinite speed, or speed at all, though. They don't have speed because on their level speed isn't even a mathematical possibility as that requires space, which isn't a thing at that level. So infinite speed is a major misnomer and outright downplay.
And someone who can physically move through time doesn't have just infinite speed, someone with infinite speed can't displace themselves across temporal dimensions. Someone with immeasurable speed can.
The shit that happens in the story would tell you otherwise
Maddie
Acclaimed
The stuff we see for New Gods, pantheons, Lords,e tc throughout Post Crisis were there emanations in realspace or emanations of their realms. Infinitesimal shadows of the true reality of the characters. The actual Godsphere stuff we rarely see. Two instances we see the Godsphere is Where is Thy Sting and Man of Tomorrow #15 where characters' thoughtforms are jumping across realities and time like they're toys.
Just because Infinite Frontier retcons and throws away all previous precedent doesn't mean what was established beforehand didn't fit the preerequisites for speed being thrown away by the Godsphere proper. That just means DC is currently shitting the bed and fucking up its cosmology.
And then the AntiMonitor gets shit blitz'd by barry and IMP through multiple universes before he finally fights back.
didnt Hypertime kinda all-canon it anyways
so all the previous things still exist in some form it just may not be applicable to what’s going on now depending
and I know nobody wants to do it but at some point we gotta revise the tier list to be more mathematically sound. the megaversal and omniversal tiers make little to no sense currently, not that they really ever have
Death Metal made everything Canon you mean
i feel you. Megaversal itself just sounds kinda dumb off rip