Transformers feats/discussion

OtherGalaxy

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Missed something very important from the Unite Warriors manga as well
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Unicron is connected to every universe in Transformers
This is the same comic where him summoning too many people at once was going to collapse the multiverse

Plotwise this doesn't make much sense, as Unicron's been plucking people from random timelines since the 80s, but Transformers isn't really the most consistent series out there

I'll update the earlier posts in this thread with some of this info later/when I feel like it so they can be more complete overviews of the cosmology and characters within them
 

OtherGalaxy

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A: Right, uhm... Another hypothetical... If pinpointing universes is as difficult as you say, would this – again “hypothetical” – gate even take its passengers where they want to go?

R: There are many clever Offworlders who could manage it. Given time and mimicked Transtech technology. I wouldn't be a volunteer to try it myself though. When working the controls for the targeting web to rescue those trapped between universes, I have seen what the inter-dimensional energies can do. And how vicious the creatures that live between existences can be.

A: Cr-Creatures?

R: Yes. Just because there isn't any existence doesn't mean there isn't any life. The Hytherion, House, the Teeth With No Eyes, the Langoliers, the Beforites and the After Alls, the Antevishnum – cousins to the Beforites, the Abaddontus Hunger, the Ravagers of Time... They all feed on the leftovers when a universe and its timeline dies. The Hytherion of course having the largest of appetites by far.
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Source:Andromeda_-_Axiom_Nexus_News_Reporter Aug 16, 2015


So this is where the Abaddontus Hunger and the Langoliers and such are first mentioned. Apparently these are entities that live in the unspace between universes, and eat the remnants of damaged or dead timelines. Hytherion is noted to be the strongest of these.
 

OtherGalaxy

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it's mostly because it was just so weird and out of nowhere, probably the most obscure tf characters I've heard of, and I wanted to know more about them. They've never appeared in a story and are referenced basically nowhere, tfwiki doesn't even have pages for them.
 

OtherGalaxy

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Yeah I think we've covered the bulk of it but the thing about tf, especially in the AVP age, is there's always likely some offhand mention of something important

Aside from cosmology buffs AVP dropped several universal+ characters on us that barely ever appeared, or established alternate versions of characters that were at that level (Tornedron, Primacron). Gave some characters multiversal boosts like Sideways etc.

TF just has a lot of very easy to miss feats because most of its series don't focus on this stuff.
 

OtherGalaxy

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Alright so I think I finally figured out the answer to a question that comes up from time to time: how strong is Post-Shroud Unicron (and Primus)
I'll make a post on the Shroud eventually because it's pretty important
But for context, spoke to Fang in this thread about why we consider Giorno low end multiversal
He clarified how the consensus was reached
https://www.fanverse.org/threads/gi...tre-john-ostrander-run.1261380/#post-64577855
So basically, affecting multiple versions of the same universe can still be multiversal by OBD standards

Why does this matter?
Unicron does this every time he eats a universe
I'm not sure this is a quantifiable number. Once Unicron has completely consumed a reality, there is little that remains to prove it was ever extant. Some philosophers have argued that, as Unicron is known to devour a reality forwards and backwards in time, then the very act of existing proves that the Singularity will not consume their reality. This is known as the Weak Cyberic Principle, the selection bias for consciousness. The flaw in this argument is, of course, that though Unicron may consume an entire reality, from the big bang through the big crunch (or entropic heat death, depending on the specific constants involved), those who escape to other realms, or whose consumption was witnessed by extradimensional visitors, may yet live on, in memory if nowhere else. Primax 703.09 Gamma is a good example of one such ravaged stream.

This means a single Unicron iteration is high end multiversal or multiversal+ because it eats every iteration of that universe throughout time. True Unicron is higher, and actually even single Unicrons have higher end feats, but this is the perfect baseline for where Post-Shroud Unicron sits, as nothing should have changed about his abilities to eat a universe.

This may also scale to the Hytherion and Megatron's Alternity form, as the Hytherion eats the origin of a universe destroying the rest of its iterations. Although you could also argue that doesn't scale to DC as it's more of a chain reaction sort of deal (Megatherion is already high end multiversal anyways, but evidence of true multiverse+ feats for Alternity characters is thin)
 

OtherGalaxy

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Something I figured I'd mention that I'd overlooked is Ramjet's bio is actually the single best explanation we ever get of "Unspace" which is the nonexistent void outside of the multiverse

Ramjet became trapped there and was tormented by the Elder Gods for eons , giving him his funky powers, and spat back out where the FunPub comics pick up.

Now we know from his bio and other sources here that Unicron effortlessly traverses Unspace, which is a realm where mathematics themselves break down. Somehow, Unicron can not only reach through this with precision, he can grant other people the ability to do so.

Also I'm gonna call bs on the Elder Gods being stronger than Unicron. When we see them in Infestation they can't even enter the multiverse on their own, which is something Unicron can do whenever he wants. They also wasted no time fucking with Ramjet, but we have never heard of them causing Unicron any trouble as he fucks with Unspace. I wonder why that might be :maybe

The Fallen was also trapped here for some time and suffered no major ill effects we're aware of.

NOTE: TFwiki claims that Unspace is what exists between universes, while the Void is the complete nonexistence that occurs when Unicron destroys all of reality/ies. I need to reread Withered Hope closer to verify as last I checked it had appeared to me they were just talking about Unspace being outside reality. Sorenson has also stated the Void is what happens when Unicron just eats a single universe, but this doesn't actually make much sense as even in Marvel it was stated he ate "The old realms" (plural) thus creating the Void.
 
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OtherGalaxy

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I figured I'd also shoot down some other misinfo since I noticed something while rereading the FunPub comics.

One of the most common things you will see in Transformers downplay is the constant claim that Unicron is beaten by weaker guys, therefore he isn't anywhere near as strong as FunPub states.
There's a lot of reasons this doesn't hold up though.

The primary reason is, of course, that the Transformers multiverse as a whole did not truly become a formalized concept until FunPub started their comics...in 2005. Decades after the concept was established but not fleshed out in Marvel. 3H Comics would also delve into it in 1997 and other comics, and admittedly I haven't gone through all these yet. They're far more obscure than other material, but the comics focusing around Shokaract involve parallel timelines intersecting and timespace of multiple universes being damaged by Unicron's destruction in the movie it was actually him being blown in marvel g1 my bad . So thus reason 1 is quite simply, FunPub added a lot to Unicron's lore that simply did not exist in years prior.

The next reason is that Unicron hasn't really ever "lost" (such a thing is always temporary because he can't really die) without some kind of powerup or artifact involved. For example in Marvel, he was destroyed by the Creation Matrix which contains Primus' essence which is essentially his allergy. In the Armada comics, he was knocked out of the universe by the Mini-cons who allegedly (it is debatable) had universal power. His collapse into a black hole in Energon is particularly notable, however FunPub's comics clarify that this only happened because his body was not at full power. Although it's debatable which version of Unicron this even is.
jWuv13e.jpg

Unicron's actual losses are as follows
1. Being tricked by Primus at the dawn of time and trapped in a physical body, separate from his original Astral self. This is the Unicron we have seen in every comic since, and it is weaker than his original form that devoured the Old Realms.

2. Shoved through a black hole by the 13 in Dreamwave. This was weakened Unicron however, as the 13 came into existence at the very beginning of the multiverse, not before it like Unicron and Primus. His other losses follow this pattern, weakened Unicron comes in contact with the Matrix or something else that can drive him away. He isn't ever overpowered. Now, officially Movie Unicron is not supposed to be connected to the god-mind and is merely supposed to be a machine made in his image out of visions Primacron received. However this is contradicted by the 3H Comics, which explicitly showcase damage to several universes that occurred from Unicron's essence leaking out after his "death" in the movie. Additionally, Takara's manga treats movie Unicron as multiversal, as it is this version that appears in the Legends Manga. It's a bit confusing, and official sources seem to all disagree on it.

3. Cut apart by Nexus Prime with the Star Saber and Terminus Blade, when Nexus was reformatting the entire multiverse. This is notable, but it has its own caveats. For one, Unicron still wasn't killed by this. Two, according to Sorenson things like the Legends manga weren't affected by The Shroud....this confusingly means Unicron both was and wasn't cut apart, at the same time, and that multiversal Unicron is still running around. This makes no sense at all but is the only official confirmation we have. Three, this is still weakened Unicron and not Astral Unicron. Considering these swords can't kill current Unicron it's unlikely this would have even worked on Astral Unicron. The Astral Plane is the highest part of existence currently canon to Transformers, and very little has been seen of it.

So tl;dr Unicron "losses" are typically the result of people exploiting the weaknesses of a less powerful body than his original form. Even the Singularity caused by one of his deaths, that threatened the entire multiverse, he still survived sitting at the core of. People like to downplay this feat as something outside of Unicron's power that only happened because the balance was shifted. The "can only be in one universe at a time" rule was also contradicted by FunPub's own material, as Unicron existing outside of time and space effectively meant he can be as many places as he wants at once. In fact even Vector Prime can do this, but he chooses not to so as not to destabilize time.

I could go on and this thread has really boiled down into a Unicron respect thread with other characters mixed in lol, but I think this covers enough.
 
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OtherGalaxy

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How strong is IDW Grimlock
going by eos/Roberts and Barber era scaling probably at least country level with relativistic reactions

Should be superior to any of the Decepticons that matched and sometimes killed Space Knights who can survive flying through suns.
He also has fought Tarn more than once who is so strong Prowl, one of the smartest characters in the setting, had believed him to be a Phase Sixer
 

Dead Lock

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going by eos/Roberts and Barber era scaling probably at least country level with relativistic reactions

Should be superior to any of the Decepticons that matched and sometimes killed Space Knights who can survive flying through suns.
He also has fought Tarn more than once who is so strong Prowl, one of the smartest characters in the setting, had believed him to be a Phase Sixer
If I may ask, how good was his 'recent' solo series?
 

Dead Lock

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Rank The Thirteen in power excluding Prima based on your own head-canon and analysis of their abilities.
 

OtherGalaxy

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Rank The Thirteen in power excluding Prima based on your own head-canon and analysis of their abilities.
Nexus (stated to be among the strongest and thus far is the only one with that hype)
Liege Maximo (very debatable but one of his avatars singlehandedly had enough psychic power to remove Unicron from their universe at the cost of his own life, we haven't really heard of any of the others pulling off something like this)

The Fallen is iffy he really has no notable feats (true Fallen I mean) on a cosmic scale but he's supposed to have some control over entropy or something. I'm putting him here because Vector considers him one of his greatest enemies

Vector/Solus (her only feat is technically better than any of his but it's all we know about her)

Logos Prime - this is a weird choice because he's supposed to have greater time abilities than Vector, but he also was driven insane by Hytherion which really doesn't make a ton of sense. It's all we have to go on though but it's a big enough L that I consider him a bit lower. I never really got why they had two members of the 13 specialize in time anyways.

The rest just straight up have like no real feats relevant on the cosmic scale. You can get a general idea of some of their abilities from the Covenant of Primus and other material, but we literally have no clue what they've even been doing for most of the story as Vector and The Fallen are the only members all that active.
 

OtherGalaxy

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...
...
There's a fucking second multiverse
God dammit
Transformers did the god damn dark multiverse bullshit years before DC did
https://tfwiki.net/wiki/Epilogue_Two
This changes a lot and True Unicron and Primus scale even higher now
I'm going to find a place and read it to grab scans later on but this is pretty huge lol
@Crimson Dragoon @Blade
 

OtherGalaxy

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So this is pretty crazy and there's a lot to consider
Firstly this is the first time Transformers has ever said it had more than one multiverse. Yes by OBD standards it's much larger but internally they've never done this.

Next, what happens is SG Transtech is able to access other universes because of what Nexus did during the Shroud, meaning Nexus could only affect one multiverse at a time. So we now know the exact limits of the Star Saber/Terminus Blade

however these are still adjacent Transformers Universes, and The Fallen had actually already accessed one in a past TFA story I need to examine in further detail. He claimed it was outside the jurisdiction of the 13 normally, hinting it is outside the main multiverse which is now confirmed.

Primus exists across all universes so he should exist across these, and Unicron was stated by the Vok, who exist across all realities, to destroy everything in a prophesied future, so he scales to these too.

Basically true/Astral Primus and Unicron scale to this second "multiverse" but Prima and Nexus Prime do not. So we now know why the Star Saber could never kill Unicron. I have to assume Unicron got cut apart because he was weakened since the 80s, however according to Sorenson not all realities were affected, and stories like LG are still multiversal....meaning post Shroud Unicron still has access to much of his original power.


I'm assuming this is the last major upgrade for the series I will find, but I was reminded of the "Unit:E" comic that depicts the Dungeons and Dragons Multiverse next to Transformers and other series, and that's an official visual not just the usual crossover. So that might be significant.

@Blade @Crimson Dragoon
 

the one

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падший может использовать силу большого взрыва и мультивселенной и может уничтожить все творение
 

OtherGalaxy

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https://tetstoys.blogspot.com/2022/07/end-of-g1-universe-manga-translation.html?m=1
https://tetstoys.blogspot.com/2022/08/end-of-g1-universe-manga-translation.html?m=1

The end of G1 Universe Manga been translated
Bear with me as my knowledge of Japanese TF continuity is very thin, but apparently this version of Lio/Leo Convoy has power from a nearly dead Unicron running through him. We get a nice feat where he is able to use it to stop a planet from exploding, though this exhausts him a bit afterwards.
EndOfG1Universe_02_005.jpg

EndOfG1Universe_02_006.jpg


This comic is...REALLY goofy. He eats dirt at one point to power himself up because "Unicron used to eat planets" :skully

Also interesting that Unicron can use his powers to give life to things if he were so inclined. I think this was touched upon in Energon/Superlink but that is quite literally one of the worst pieces of Transformers media of all time and I don't want to revisit it.
 
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