Transformers feats/discussion

[OtherGalaxy]

Yeah I think the idea of Unicron as "Chaos" or "Evil" is sort of a widescale misunderstanding. Forest Lee's arc which you posted above makes it clear that ideas like death, entropy, etc. come from Unicron, but Unicron is still explicit that they are poor representations of him. He doesn't seem definable in a conventional sense, especially factoring in the abstract nature of the Tree of Life which, again, would only be attributed to half of him at best. The fact that he ate the rest of his species prior to Primus' birth also showcases he has no issue dealing with similarly abstract beings.

Also want to note that Alginment, Furman specifically calls the gods (and in the TF Guide, says this realm Liege Maximo was ascending to is the realm of the gods) "not real", and that "unreality" would pour into the universe and destroy it during the Alignment. Furman used the term Unspace in the old Marvel run, so I feel that if this was meant to be just more Unspace shenanigans he would have said that in the story.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

here's a breakdown of the Alignment feats and lore for reference, I should add this to OP next time I do an update of it

Transformers feats/discussion

I guess some Japanese material now refers to the continuities as multiverses https://tf.takaratomy.co.jp/products-lineup/tf_tl/tl-ex-04 VS500 entry number 04, the crane truck Road Hauler from G1 Multiverse, is participating. His main job is to maintain the race course, such as removing broken...

onelastforum.com

 

[Thirteen prime]

Yeah I think the idea of Unicron as "Chaos" or "Evil" is sort of a widescale misunderstanding. Forest Lee's arc which you posted above makes it clear that ideas like death, entropy, etc. come from Unicron, but Unicron is still explicit that they are poor representations of him. He doesn't seem definable in a conventional sense, especially factoring in the abstract nature of the Tree of Life which, again, would only be attributed to half of him at best. The fact that he ate the rest of his species prior to Primus' birth also showcases he has no issue dealing with similarly abstract beings.

Also want to note that Alginment, Furman specifically calls the gods (and in the TF Guide, says this realm Liege Maximo was ascending to is the realm of the gods) "not real", and that "unreality" would pour into the universe and destroy it during the Alignment. Furman used the term Unspace in the old Marvel run, so I feel that if this was meant to be just more Unspace shenanigans he would have said that in the story.

are there scans about realm of the gods from transformers the ultimate guide?

 

[OtherGalaxy]

are there scans about realm of the gods from transformers the ultimate guide?

Top right, "Realm of the Dark Gods (Unicron et al)"

The entire guide is available for download in TFWiki's out of print media archive which I have linked in the OP

 

[OtherGalaxy]

wait the Universe featuring the Wreckers comics the Oracle says it sees a time when the "Allspark shatters"

The Allspark and the Tree of Life are effectively the same thing

the Universe comics are about one of Unicron's many convoluted schemes from outside reality

I don't know how seriously to take this, but the Tree and Primus were always half of Unicron at his height anyways, and in Linkage he showcased he had the ability to destroy other afterlifes. It wouldn't necessarily conflict with anything I guess? Just be a case of massively unintended scale on the writer's part maybe?

 

[Paxton]

so how many infinities does that make Unicron bigger than, in other words?

 

[OtherGalaxy]

hell if I know

hypothetically if we take all statements at face value (so I am not saying to do this necessarily)
you have "countless" dimensions, which should each contain universes that each have an "uncountable infinity" of branching universes, then you have other multiverses like the Shattered Glass one that should follow the same rule, the Vok stating Unicron's agents were a virus on the omniverse, which by Vector Prime's own word contains "uncountable infinities (plural)" beyond the main multiverse, and THEN you have same story as the previous, the Vok stating (weakened robot form) Unicron would destroy every plane of existence and reality eventually and THEEEEN you have that this is literally a sealed version of himself, and the real one still beat down Primus...a Primus who is technically stronger than he is now...who the Tree of Life is still a part of (though I'm more than willing to meet in the middle and say somehow the Tree is reflective of True Primus or something)

it's just a really ridiculous scaling chain that was 100% unintentional by any author barring maybe Bob Skir but basically the Unicron who appears in like 3 panels in the 80s chapter "The Void" is cracked as fuck

Now with more scrutiny applied, there's not much way to determine if there really are 'countless' higher dimensions, especially given how often they are used to mean universe. I will say I'm fairly sure there's more than 17 higher dimensions though, given Hirofumi Ichikawa called the Alternity reaching 10 and 11 dimensions "only a few steps up" which implies there's much higher to ascend to. The Tree doesn't have anything to do with higher dimensions or reality regardless, and you have Unspace with that weird "ordered mathematics are nonsense" line.

The real answer is I have no idea. Transformers scaling is not very direct, all of the stuff mentioned above spans material from different writers, languages, era, medias etc. TF is just different than Marvel or DC because it doesn't have these massive restructurings, so the same information from 40 30 20 years ago just...stays canon and makes it all more complicated. Even the Shroud which was supposed to streamline it all did the exact opposite because everyone just went about their business writing other multiverse stories after.

 

[grillmaster]

Hi, im new here, i happened to find something neat earlier by sheer happenstance that actually relates to this conversation. So anyway this Cobalt Agent guy back in 2016 on the TFW2005 forums got curious and emailed Jim Sorenson to ask how many dimensions are in the TF multiverse:
https://www.tfw2005.com/boards/thre...ns-does-the-tf-multiverse-have.1076345/page-2
Jim Sorenson said:

Interesting question. I would suggest that, as we know there are many different universes, it's entirely possible that different universes have a different number of dimensions. In fact, we've seen that in storytelling to an extent. The Alternity, after all, had significant dealings with the two dimensional beings from the world of Flaternity.

Cobalt was then wondering if this meant the TF Multiverse had no upper or lower limits in terms of dimensions
i know its unfortunately not technically an official statement but i thought it was at least interesting, and i wonder what you'd make of it
edit: i would have waited a little while longer to post this but i didnt wanna forget

 

[OtherGalaxy]

Hi, im new here, i happened to find something neat earlier by sheer happenstance that actually relates to this conversation. So anyway this Cobalt Agent guy back in 2016 on the TFW2005 forums got curious and emailed Jim Sorenson to ask how many dimensions are in the TF multiverse:
https://www.tfw2005.com/boards/thre...ns-does-the-tf-multiverse-have.1076345/page-2
Jim Sorenson said:

Cobalt was then wondering if this meant the TF Multiverse had no upper or lower limits in terms of dimensions
i know its unfortunately not technically an official statement but i thought it was at least interesting, and i wonder what you'd make of it
edit: i would have waited a little while longer to post this but i didnt wanna forget

first off welcome always good to have another TF head here

I’ve seen this before but similarly to you wasn’t really sure what to make of it, He says they can have different numbers but doesn’t really clarify how many or allude to any kind of specific amount either way.

I’m not against using word of god at all, especially as TF has a lot of vagueness that statements are the only clarification on (see: Forest Lee’s singularity explanation)

 

[grillmaster]

Thanks for the welcome man
It is a real confusing quote though i will admit, though i wonder if it does actually serve as the explanation for the inconsistent numbers given for dimensions depending on universe; like I believe ive seen up to 22 dimensions mentioned before, not even going into the "countless" dimensions. I suppose that could have to do with how 17 dimensions is considered "basic" as it could be either more or less depending on what universe you're in

 

[OtherGalaxy]

yeah I just use the 17 being “basic” as a way to handwave that there should be more, I think 22 is from the ROTF novel from Sam saying “what about the other 17?” and 17+4….the 17 may have just been an error of Sorenson trying to reference that in all honesty.

 

[grillmaster]

That sounds about right to me. Ive got my qualms with dimensional tiering on its own, not least of which how dimensions vary in meaning wildly across fiction, but it was interesting to me regardless and i wanted to share it
on an unrelated note, i find it almost sad in a funny way reading cobalt agent's old posts. ive been seeing him across old tfw2005 threads for years, poor guy was raging against the infinite downplay of transformers own fans lmao
ive never seen people downplay a series they like more than the fans in those threads its baffling

 

[Paxton]

as a certain admiral once said.. the agenda must be maintained at all costs

 

[grillmaster]

speaking of which i found in one of cobalts posts this cool bio for Marvel UK Galvatron, and i couldnt look to check if it was shared here so im sorry if its a repost but still

"nuke level" galvatron

 

[grillmaster]

not even getting into what might be the funniest downplay argument in all of existence to me personally, that nukes would kill transformers because of the radiation, going off of how the radiation messed up the robots the USSR sent into chernobyl

soviet union level intergalactic robot empire
megatron is chernobyl drone level

 

[Thirteen prime]

speaking of which i found in one of cobalts posts this cool bio for Marvel UK Galvatron, and i couldnt look to check if it was shared here so im sorry if its a repost but still

"nuke level" galvatron

In general, this level is much higher, for example, even Megatron from Marvel comics was able to burn 50 billion tons of coal instantly, and a galvatron with the power to destroy a mountain range should at least be at the level of large countries.

 

[grillmaster]

In general, this level is much higher, for example, even Megatron from Marvel comics was able to burn 50 billion tons of coal instantly, and a galvatron with the power to destroy a mountain range should at least be at the level of large countries.

holy shit what megatron instantly burned 50 billion tons of coal??? how instantly are we talking do you have the scans ive never seen that before
also yeah ik galvatron isnt nuke level, that was sarcasm on my part

 

[OtherGalaxy]

oh yeah, tf fans downplay the series in really weird ways. I don’t post on any TF forums, but ive lurked most of them since i was a kid. It’s really funny how quick to lowball their own team they are. That nuke thread was super funny because like…Cybertron was full of planet busting and much higher feats bros. We gotta do better

 

[grillmaster]

oh yeah, tf fans downplay the series in really weird ways. I don’t post on any TF forums, but ive lurked most of them since i was a kid. It’s really funny how quick to lowball their own team they are. That nuke thread was super funny because like…Cybertron was full of planet busting and much higher feats bros. We gotta do better

city level cybertron planets
city level universes

 

[Paxton]

oh yeah, tf fans downplay the series in really weird ways. I don’t post on any TF forums, but ive lurked most of them since i was a kid. It’s really funny how quick to lowball their own team they are. That nuke thread was super funny because like…Cybertron was full of planet busting and much higher feats bros. We gotta do better

To Aru fans using the "narrative" of the series to argue that they can just shoot Touma type shit

(ignoring that the same narrative has Touma withstand magical attacks from characters who can at the very minimum blow up a city block literally every volume)