Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 1: OBD 2027 prologue edition

[Paxton]

Imagine Breaker hits its limit around City level (unless its dealing specifically with the Magic Gods or something iirc?) and because FGO has no brakes the current baseline for an "Average" Servant is like......continental or something now.

Thing is none of the FSN cast besides True Assassin are "Average". Heracles and Arturia both have planetary feats to their names, Gilgamesh goes even higher than that, Medusa and Cu have both tangled with extremely heavy hitters and can stand even with Herc and Arturia, Medea's younger and weaker self made a literal pancake out of a being that can levitate a landmass the size of a small country, and Koujiro.....would require a ten paragraph long explanation of Nasuverse sword autism so take my word for it when I say he could probably cut through IB's erasure ability itself.

Emiya is closer to average but is obscenely versatile, has combat precog that let's him keep pace with a guy who can blitz him, and can punch out of his weight class because of even more Nasuverse specific mechanics that equate to "he can make his swords into suicide bombs"

I'm not quite sure if I'd put stuff like Fiamma's 40km sword or Accelerator's Black Wings at "city level", although it dealing with Magic God stuff certainly isn't due to a specific type-matchup of some kind against them. It's just that strong for one-and-done effects. Coronzon's barrier very clearly is not made by a Magic God (she isn't one and she fuels the barrier with her energy iirc) Though I could be missing something regarding it's failure against lower tier attacks.

Not sure about that Kojiro part but I'll take your word for it.

 

[CrossTheHorizon]

It was said that IB could destroy the artificial universe created by Coronzon, which would require all the theoretical power of the Magical God to destroy.

Isn't that because IB has some kind of anti Magic God thing? Because it couldn't stop Accelerators wings completely (to the point Touma actually used that to his advantage to yank Accelerator off balance) even when he still only had the black wings.

 

[Paxton]

Isn't that because IB has some kind of anti Magic God thing? Because it couldn't stop Accelerators wings completely (to the point Touma actually used that to his advantage to yank Accelerator off balance) even when he still only had the black wings.

To my knowledge, no. The barrier, not an artificial universe iirc, was just COMPARED to the Magic Gods. In that you'd need an attack at that level to break through. Imagine Breaker does exactly that to my memory. And so does Curtana.
Coronzon isn't a Magic God, obviously.

It IS weird how her energy fuels said barrier, but she's hardly any stronger than a x2 nerfed Magic God.

 

[Mr.OMG]

Isn't that because IB has some kind of anti Magic God thing? Because it couldn't stop Accelerators wings completely (to the point Touma actually used that to his advantage to yank Accelerator off balance) even when he still only had the black wings.

I think it was just because the wings had a constant source of energy in the form of Accel. The Anti-Magic God effect was the WR. I'll give you the right quote about the universe created by Coronzon.

Index and Karasuma Fran viewed the entire battlefield while dangling from a large Bunny Gray balloon.

"I can't 'see' it even from above. This is a level beyond a normal people-clearing field."

"It isn't that a wall is dividing world from world. Think of it as a created world being placed in between like a cushioning balloon."

"You mean we can't break through that without enough power to destroy an entire world?"

"You would need a theoretical max-value Magic God attack, or…"

"That recovered right hand?"

"…"

Hanging around that boy was not the only way to help.

In fact, Index could not fight directly, so if she was on the front line, that boy might end up focusing only on protecting her. They could never settle things with Great Demon Coronzon like that.

So she had changed her methods.

This was another way to help.

"So where is the Queen Britannia's power source? If it uses the ley lines, we could temporarily cut off the line leading to the ship."

"No, it doesn't work like that. In fact, it's trying to reach a specific point because that's where it can access the ley lines most efficiently. It hasn't reached that state yet."

"Then what is it?"

"Great Demon Coronzon. She is using the power stored up inside herself. Her own power is more stable than using one of the weaker ley lines. And look how much power that is… She must be a transcendent lifeform belonging to a different pyramid than Michael or Gabriel."

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

To my knowledge, no. The barrier, not an artificial universe iirc, was just COMPARED to the Magic Gods. In that you'd need an attack at that level to break through. Imagine Breaker does exactly that to my memory. And so does Curtana.
Coronzon isn't a Magic God, obviously.

It IS weird how her energy fuels said barrier, but she's hardly any stronger than a x2 nerfed Magic God.

I know it's easier if I read it... but man, this is not easy to understand at all no matter how much I get told about it.

 

[Paxton]

I know it's easier if I read it... but man, this is not easy to understand at all no matter how much I get told about it.

In all fairness, I'm not that confident myself with most of the information regarding the series.
Mainly because my memory is piss poor, but that's another thing entirely.

 

[Paxton]

If there's anything you're confused about specifically you could either ask me or Mr.OMG.
Although reading the series probably WOULD help significantly.

 

[CrossTheHorizon]

I'm not quite sure if I'd put stuff like Fiamma's 40km sword or Accelerator's Black Wings at "city level", although it dealing with Magic God stuff certainly isn't due to a specific type-matchup of some kind against them. It's just that strong for one-and-done effects. Coronzon's barrier very clearly is not made by a Magic God (she isn't one and she fuels the barrier with her energy iirc) Though I could be missing something regarding it's failure against lower tier attacks.

Not sure about that Kojiro part but I'll take your word for it.

Where would you put it then? I barely remember anything from ToAru, but I don't think either attack managed anything particularly impressive in terms of damage.

And just glancing over the wiki, the IB is supposed to be the accumulation of Magicians desire to return to normality, which the Magic Gods being what they are have some direct connection to.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

In all fairness, I'm not that confident myself with most of the information regarding the series.
Mainly because my memory is piss poor, but that's another thing entirely.

Like I don't doubt your word or OMG's, it's more like it gets me because no matter how much I see it and the context, I can never wrap my head around as the way it's stated just further throws me for a loop.
It feels weird because the Nasuisms is atleast Nasu creating new words and phrases, Kamachi seems to really love going for prose.

 

[Paxton]

Where would you put it then? I barely remember anything from ToAru, but I don't think either attack managed anything particularly impressive in terms of damage.

And just glancing over the wiki, the IB is supposed to be the accumulation of Magicians desire to return to normality, which the Magic Gods being what they are have some direct connection to.

Honestly? I'm 99% sure there's narration of said sword cleaving through a mountain (or was it a mountain range?). So mountain level as as a low end. Probably country level if it stacks up to Gabriel's self-destruction/Sweep (though I think Sweep is a lot stronger), but I don't recall that being a thing. Could be wrong.

 

[CrossTheHorizon]

I think it was just because the wings had a constant source of energy in the form of Accel. The Anti-Magic God effect was the WR. I'll give you the right quote about the universe created by Coronzon.

Uh

That says world.

And while I know that world and universe can be conflated to some extent in Japanese....To Aru doesn't have multiple universes, it has those weird ass Phase things of indeterminate size and complexity.

 

[Paxton]

Like I don't doubt your word or OMG's, it's more like it gets me because no matter how much I see it and the context, I can never wrap my head around as the way it's stated just further throws me for a loop.
It feels weird because the Nasuisms is atleast Nasu creating new words and phrases, Kamachi seems to really love going for prose.

Yeah, Kamachi can be pretty wordy with his descriptions. Sometimes it makes sense, and other times... well let's just say it took me a couple of re-reads for the infamous soul kick that Accelerator did to Coronzon.

 

[CrossTheHorizon]

Honestly? I'm 99% sure there's narration of said sword cleaving through a mountain (or was it a mountain range?). So mountain level as as a low end. Probably country level if it stacks up to Gabriel's self-destruction/Sweep (though I think Sweep is a lot stronger), but I don't recall that being a thing. Could be wrong.

I mean, if you can find it, bring it up. Though "mountain level" (or even country level) is still solidly below the FSN cast nowadays

 

[Mr.OMG]

Like I don't doubt your word or OMG's, it's more like it gets me because no matter how much I see it and the context, I can never wrap my head around as the way it's stated just further throws me for a loop.
It feels weird because the Nasuisms is atleast Nasu creating new words and phrases, Kamachi seems to really love going for prose.

The main problem is that Kamachi doesn't like to explain things properly. And in order to find the answer, you have to read the long-standing volumes of the book, or even the spin-offs. For example, it was only thanks to 10 NT and the Agnes side story that I could understand why any magic distorts causality, probability, fate and the future.

Uh

That says world.

And while I know that world and universe can be conflated to some extent in Japanese....To Aru doesn't have multiple universes, it has those weird ass Phase things of indeterminate size and complexity.

I will say even more, the word "world" can mean much more than one universe.

The earth, the universe, and the world were nothing but a giant balloon. And a Magic God was a potted cactus wobbling on top of the balloon. That would cause anyone to panic. Once one learned of its existence, they would be worried around the clock that the cactus would eventually topple over as it moved freely about.

 

[Paxton]

Uh

That says world.

And while I know that world and universe can be conflated to some extent in Japanese....To Aru doesn't have multiple universes, it has those weird ass Phase things of indeterminate size and complexity.

I'd assume in that quote "world" is referring to the cosmology in its entirety. The physical universe + the Phases included, which are likely to all be universal in size if not greater given the Dainsleif information in NT10 (Marian had to create a separate space for the Phase beings to reside in, otherwise reality would be distorted ala Angel Fall or just outright destroyed, impling that Phases > the physical universe).

Although To Aru doesn't have a "multiverse" in the standard definition of the word, aka no parallel timelines, Phases for all intents and purposes count as "another" universe.

Usually if it's referring to a Magic God, it's safe to assume "world" includes the universe + Phases, which they'd destroy just by entering the universe if they don't nerf themselves.

 

[Paxton]

I mean, if you can find it, bring it up. Though "mountain level" (or even country level) is still solidly below the FSN cast nowadays

Fair, I think I have it saved somewhere.
Nevermind LOL
It's all just Fiamma feats EXCEPT for the 40km sword specifically.
@Mr.OMG you know what I'm talking about right?

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

The main problem is that Kamachi doesn't like to explain things properly. And in order to find the answer, you have to read the long-standing volumes of the book, or even the spin-offs. For example, it was only thanks to 10 NT and the Agnes side story that I could understand why any magic distorts causality, probability, fate and the future.

Yeah that really does get me because usually, that isn't really all that needed with Nasu stuff in most cases(Fate Grand Order is usually called Baby's First Fate by me because it precisely mentions most of it and explains it and other series do reference these).

Half the time, I thought I could understand what Kamachi means and suddenly NOPE.

 

[Paxton]

Where would you put it then? I barely remember anything from ToAru, but I don't think either attack managed anything particularly impressive in terms of damage.

And just glancing over the wiki, the IB is supposed to be the accumulation of Magicians desire to return to normality, which the Magic Gods being what they are have some direct connection to.

That last part is sort of true, but that's really just a theory made by unreliable characters in-universe. The only person who knows what Imagine Breaker is would be Aleister iirc.
Its ability to nullify the supernatural is again just an application of its original power/purpose, which I personally think is something along the lines of acting as a "judge" to outside "observers". But that's just my speculation.

 

[CrossTheHorizon]

I'd assume in that quote "world" is referring to the cosmology in its entirety. The physical universe + the Phases included, which are likely to all be universal in size if not greater given the Dainsleif information in NT10 (Marian had to create a separate space for the Phase beings to reside in, otherwise reality would be distorted ala Angel Fall or just outright destroyed, impling that Phases > the physical universe).

Although To Aru doesn't have a "multiverse" in the standard definition of the word, aka no parallel timelines, Phases for all intents and purposes count as "another" universe.

Usually if it's referring to a Magic God, it's safe to assume "world" includes the universe + Phases, which they'd destroy just by entering the universe if they don't nerf themselves.

Yeah, gonna need to stop you there and bring you up to speed on the current To Aru situation here.

Long story short, To Aru is basically capped at universal in how we regard it.

Long story long, the guy who pushed this series before you had......issues, explaining its cosmology. Along with there being a quote from the writer that there was only one universe, and nothing on the size of the Phases, it basically means that as far as we can tell there is a single universe with an unknown number of pocket dimensions inside of it. Even if an entity could potentially take out all of it at once......that makes it universal at most.

This series has baggage like you wouldn't believe on the OBD, and if you want to argue for anything beyond that you're going to have to make a meta thread and bring the receipts.

 

[Paxton]

On a somewhat related note, this particular quote really fucking confuses me.

"What you're doing is on a huge scale. Moving the entire world is so far out of the ordinary that 'almighty' might be right on the mark. But the actual life-size phenomenon should be no different from teleportation. You can't accomplish this level of accuracy like that."

"Stop it. I don't like being praised like that. You saw Othinus at full power, didn't you? If the predicted specs I calculated out are accurate, her power would go well beyond mine which is limited to the world we're in now. How many times was the world destroyed on your way here? In fact, how'd you even defeat her when she had her lance? …No, merely winning in a fistfight wouldn't get you back to this world."

It was true that 100% Almighty Thor would likely be killed in an instant if he faced 100% Magic God Othinus. Thor ruled a single world while Othinus created infinite worlds. That was an obvious and insurmountable wall."

Like, it's comparing Othinus and Thor (whose ability involves the planet shifting around to let him dodge/get into range for attacks), and saying that he rules "one world" while Othinus creates "infinite worlds", but the latter can't be referring to just an infinite amount of planets because Magic Gods should be far beyond that.

Really not sure what to make of this.