Misconceptions about VS. Debating

[OtherGalaxy]

^just want to note the problematic alien x multiversal quote was actually walked back by DJW who seemed annoyed people kept thinking X was multiversal and straight up said it only affected one universe

you can argue Clockwork’s feat but thats a separate issue complete unrelated to WoG

some series also have things they only bother to explain with WoG like transformers, especially with the shroud. It was only explicitly cleared up in an obscure blog by an official author. The actual material only vaguely covered what he talked about

Fromsoft games directed by Miyazaki also have this issue. Stuff like the way species work in Dark Souls isn’t elaborated in much if at all in game and only has canon info from old interviews. Less so with the weird dragon immortality but it’s still more spelled out in miyazaki’s interviews than anywhere else prior to dark souls 3

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

^just want to note the problematic alien x multiversal quote was actually walked back by DJW who seemed annoyed people kept thinking X was multiversal and straight up said it only affected one universe

you can argue Clockwork’s feat but thats a separate issue complete unrelated to WoG

some series also have things they only bother to explain with WoG like transformers, especially with the shroud. It was only explicitly cleared up in an obscure blog by an official author. The actual material only vaguely covered what he talked about

Fromsoft games directed by Miyazaki also have this issue. Stuff like the way species work in Dark Souls isn’t elaborated in much if at all in game and only has canon info from old interviews. Less so with the weird dragon immortality but it’s still more spelled out in miyazaki’s interviews than anywhere else prior to dark souls 3

Oh no, I explicitly stated that WoG just needs to collaborate with what's shown in the pages atleast in the fashion that's what it could go to without much debate.
Like it's pretty obvious that most of Transformers WoG fits with the shit we see in various comics and even the ones that most people can't easily find. It's the same deal with Miyazaki games even if he doesn't say it outright.
There's a difference between that and J.K. Rowling... being J.K. Rowling.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

tf authors actually contradict themselves a lot when asked about the exact same things which is why i brought it up

bionicle is actually another good one that has tons of important WoG reveals but he also contradicts himself aaaaall the time so it’s difficult to know when and what to use

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

tf authors actually contradict themselves a lot when asked about the exact same things which is why i brought it up

bionicle is actually another good one that has tons of important WoG reveals but he also contradicts himself aaaaall the time so it’s difficult to know when and what to use

Well that answer is apparent:
How far up the totem pole is some of the authors to the actual creators? Do they further use the info from one major author or another?
Like yeah, it will end up being a pain in the ass but the buck has to stop somewhere, it's no different than Marvel or DC.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

Well that answer is apparent:
How far up the totem pole is some of the authors to the actual creators? Do they further use the info from one major author or another?
Like yeah, it will end up being a pain in the ass but the buck has to stop somewhere, it's no different than Marvel or DC.

it is a lot like marvel, dc, or any major production with many different authors yeah. The only thing that sets TF apart is the “everything is canon” stance which is where this can become a headache

My approach is that I gather the most amount of consistent statements and put it together with what we know to reach a conclusion

Because TF is known for being insanely inconsistent in general, so it’s extremely easy to lose track of what matters, and when it matters etc etc

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

it is a lot like marvel, dc, or any major production with many different authors yeah. The only thing that sets TF apart is the “everything is canon” stance which is where this can become a headache

My approach is that I gather the most amount of consistent statements and put it together with what we know to reach a conclusion

Because TF is known for being insanely inconsistent in general, so it’s extremely easy to lose track of what matters, and when it matters etc etc

I could have made an exceptions part back there but I didn't really think that I needed to do that.
"Everything is Canon" falls under that same scrutiny for obvious reasons so yeah, you will have to sift through the most consistent stuff and there's where you get it.

As it's no different than DC, Marvel or other series that tend to be a massive expansive Universe like Dark Tower or D&D, you gotta find what's the most consistently used and work with that.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

yeah I mean there are many statements for example about the TF multiverse being finite, but I don’t use them because the infinity nonsense statements and explanations vastly outnumber them

Elric can also be like this. Moorcock has called his multiverse infinite or “only” quasi-infinite on multiple separate contradictory occasions. Apparently to him they both coexist because he is using Zoroastrianism as one source of inspo, where both concepts coexist.

I lost whatever point I was making in there but lol

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

yeah I mean there are many statements for example about the TF multiverse being finite, but I don’t use them because the infinity nonsense statements and explanations vastly outnumber them

Elric can also be like this. Moorcock has called his multiverse infinite or “only” quasi-infinite on multiple separate contradictory occasions. Apparently to him they both coexist because he is using Zoroastrianism as one source of inspo, where both concepts coexist.

I lost whatever point I was making in there but lol

I actually do understand what you are talking about.
How many times do I hear people constantly bitch about "How they know Nasu constantly pulls shit out of his ass" or "being inconsistent" because in Japanese, him and the writers under him go by "High Speed" and all of that other jazz, meaning any actual localizations should never be used(Ignore that this is only ever done for the Nasuverse and not any other series that has the same issue).
The obvious as hell issue is that this practically ignores things like the characters being able to intercept or dodge literal Lightning, dodge Lasers/Light, keep up with beings that move as fast as light throughout the series multiple times.
Shiki Tohno cutting a Lightning Bolt from Roa is in a Melty Blood Manga for fuck's sake(which wasn't that long after Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero came out).

So you end up with people constantly trying to rush in with High Ends and using pure Japanese translation to disprove things despite the various VN, Anime and Manga have feats that goes against those statements multiple times.

It's basically not understanding that most authors don't give a fuck about being anal of a character's speed unless you explicitly asked them yourself... and then be surprised when surprise, surprise, a character can move FTL because hey, every other feat you ignore went straight into that one anyway.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

I actually do understand what you are talking about.
How many times do I hear people constantly bitch about "How they know Nasu constantly pulls shit out of his ass" or "being inconsistent" because in Japanese, him and the writers under him go by "High Speed" and all of that other jazz, meaning any actual localizations should never be used(Ignore that this is only ever done for the Nasuverse and not any other series that has the same issue).
The obvious as hell issue is that this practically ignores things like the characters being able to intercept or dodge literal Lightning, dodge Lasers/Light, keep up with beings that move as fast as light throughout the series multiple times.
Shiki Tohno cutting a Lightning Bolt from Roa is in a Melty Blood Manga for fuck's sake(which wasn't that long after Fate/Stay Night and Fate/Zero came out).

So you end up with people constantly trying to rush in with High Ends and using pure Japanese translation to disprove things despite the various VN, Anime and Manga have feats that goes against those statements multiple times.

It's basically not understanding that most authors don't give a fuck about being anal of a character's speed unless you explicitly asked them yourself... and then be surprised when surprise, surprise, a character can move FTL because hey, every other feat you ignore went straight into that one anyway.

funnily enough for as long running as it is, transformers mostly barely even has speed feats (relative to its scope as a franchise) it just happened to be that the few it does have are usually bullshit fast or outside of any ability to measure entirely

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

funnily enough for as long running as it is, transformers mostly barely even has speed feats (relative to its scope as a franchise) it just happened to be that the few it does have are usually bullshit fast or outside of any ability to measure entirely

Then those are good enough, "Consistency" is overrated as fuck in judging feats and there are other things that has to be ironed out.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

i do think consistency is an important way to determine what is and isn’t valid, but claiming something is inconsistent has become just another form of downplay by certain forums and is how you get slower than bullet speed Kars and wall level elden ring characters

 

[Paxton]

i do think consistency is an important way to determine what is and isn’t valid, but claiming something is inconsistent has become just another form of downplay by certain forums and is how you get slower than bullet speed Kars and wall level elden ring characters

bullet level touma

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

i do think consistency is an important way to determine what is and isn’t valid, but claiming something is inconsistent has become just another form of downplay by certain forums and is how you get slower than bullet speed Kars and wall level elden ring characters

Yeah, that's understandable but the issue is that you also get it in reverse with people trying to throw in something to downplay because it's also "more consistent"

It's a two way street at the end of the day.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

I will say I think arguing “from the narrative” is actually valid and one of the most important ways you evaluate potential outliers

the issue is what SB specifically calls breaking the narrative, and what actually breaks/contradicts it are completely different things

when they are arguing that JoJo characters can’t be ftl because it breaks the setting/narrative/etc they aren’t arguing it against anything that the author is actually stating in the story, they’re arguing it against their personal opinion on what should be realistic or consistent for that setting, and whether they are hypothetically right about this or not it’s a fallacious argument. FTL Stands doesn’t break anything because Araki has constantly reiterated and shown us that stands can move and punch and perceive things at this level.
Bringing up “they should be able to run around the world then” not only doesn’t make much sense (fiction generally treats reaction speeds as higher than travel, jojo just has a bigger discrepancy wrt this), it isn’t actually brought up in the story as a possibility or issue at all. This kind of hardline approach also falls apart when you realize that even low level supersonic characters should not take anywhere near as long as they do to get places. As an argumental tactic it doesn’t hold up for any measure of superspeed, their subjective disbelief just isn’t being suspended here so they throw out the feat.
JoJo is an extreme example of this, but even series with a much average higher power and speed like Toriko, look how long it can take them to travel their planet. It’s everywhere in fiction, it may as well just be a trope at this point.

Regarding pros, outliers are a good place to consult the narrative. I complain about IDW Transformers being wanked to universal a lot and it is because the narrative contradicts and doesn’t support it. Characters supposedly using “universe level attacks” during an arc where they need significant prep and equipment to allow one universe to bleed into the next. Characters tanking universal attacks in one arc (that were never confirmed to be that strong) then time and time again being nearly killed by planet level attacks and far lower. No matter how you slice it, the feats aren’t consistent and they certainly don’t match up to how we are actually told they or the story are playing out.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

I will say I think arguing “from the narrative” is actually valid and one of the most important ways you evaluate potential outliers

the issue is what SB specifically calls breaking the narrative, and what actually breaks/contradicts it are completely different things

when they are arguing that JoJo characters can’t be ftl because it breaks the setting/narrative/etc they aren’t arguing it against anything that the author is actually stating in the story, they’re arguing it against their personal opinion on what should be realistic or consistent for that setting, and whether they are hypothetically right about this or not it’s a fallacious argument. FTL Stands doesn’t break anything because Araki has constantly reiterated and shown us that stands can move and punch and perceive things at this level.
Bringing up “they should be able to run around the world then” not only doesn’t make much sense (fiction generally treats reaction speeds as higher than travel, jojo just has a bigger discrepancy wrt this), it isn’t actually brought up in the story as a possibility or issue at all. This kind of hardline approach also falls apart when you realize that even low level supersonic characters should not take anywhere near as long as they do to get places. As an argumental tactic it doesn’t hold up for any measure of superspeed, their subjective disbelief just isn’t being suspended here so they throw out the feat.
JoJo is an extreme example of this, but even series with a much average higher power and speed like Toriko, look how long it can take them to travel their planet. It’s everywhere in fiction, it may as well just be a trope at this point.

Honestly, this isn't even new at all to any series in fiction as you stated, the issue is when you have Spacebattles, CharacterRant and more try and ultimately force in the "narrative breaking" as an actual VS. debate for only series they think it makes sense for but never really understand how stupid it is to use at all.

Saitama can apparently move FTL... but it takes him hours to find crime to keep his Hero standing afloat? Or to get to the battle in progress? No one says shit about that.
Or how about Deku not being able to easily make it back to UA Island and needing to hitch a ride from Star and Stripe's Air Force Entourage despite the fact he should be able to outspeed those jets by leaps and bounds?
Notice how they never bring this up but they will very clearly say that Servants moving Relativistic "breaks the setting" despite having clear reasons why they can't run that fast all the time:

1. It's the equivalent of doing a marathon sprint to get to your UFC Match, you think you won't be gassed out wasting energy getting there?

2. The issue isn't short bursts at all, hell, the series explicitly show throughout all of it's fight scenes the issue is never short bursts, it's continuous use of speed is where the problem is.

3. They may be able to move at those speeds... but their extremely vulnerable Masters CANNOT! Why would you leave the person keeping you around open for counterattack in the first place? This is why most Mages only do that when they completely fortify their bases or have you explicitly locked down(and why F/SN was such a mess compared to every other known HGW, even compared to Apocrypha)

It's either pure ignorance or calculated ignorance to push agendas and it's why it's such a pain in the ass to deal with people like them. Hearing people legit say Medusa's Pegasus and Iskandar's Gordius Wheel can only move 400-500KMPH over absolute bullshit(The former is from Shirou's POV which even the game itself doesn't stand by and the latter is explicitly a lie not just through how the text goes against it but the very feat of it going from 100 meters apart to 0 in less than a blink of an eye), especially when that means the Servants move faster than their own rides by a gargantuan degree by their own abilities is absolutely retarded.

 

[OtherGalaxy]

it’s Yusuke not being able to catch up to a truck all over again lol

while at the end of the same arc, and granted he got a power up but still, he’s crossing like entire countries’ worth of distances in panels

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Regarding pros, outliers are a good place to consult the narrative. I complain about IDW Transformers being wanked to universal a lot and it is because the narrative contradicts and doesn’t support it. Characters supposedly using “universe level attacks” during an arc where they need significant prep and equipment to allow one universe to bleed into the next. Characters tanking universal attacks in one arc (that were never confirmed to be that strong) then time and time again being nearly killed by planet level attacks and far lower. No matter how you slice it, the feats aren’t consistent and they certainly don’t match up to how we are actually told they or the story are playing out.

This, again, fits another issue I have seen people incessantly bitch about when it comes to the Nasuverse:
"People complain that characters can survive this but then get easily cut by swords and shit from other Servants", you know? Constantly having them as Glass Cannons and shit but here's where it truly gets hilarious:

Nasu already clarified it as early as F/Z's Anime:

Fate/Zero Anime Visual Guide II said:
Higashide: Incidentally, does the sharpness of Excalibur vary when covered with and without Invisible Air?
Nasu: It varies considerably. The destructive power of this golden version is overwhelmingly superior. If the power when in Invisible Air is 80-90, the golden version is about 1000.

A Noble Phantasm is absurdly strong even when it's not used at full power. There is an insane distance between just slashing with one, using some of it's power and a True Name Release.
This is also shown in plenty of different series as well.

The truly funny part is that most feats that people sleep on... are the ones that was explained in other series and are fully elaborated on later like this one:

At first you are like: "That's just as strong as a Hydrogen Bomb" till you then read and find out the substance they are directly under requires enough energy/force to destroy the Planet and yeah, lol, it begins to show just how tough things in the series even are when you decide to actually look at feats correctly rather than just side-eye them.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

it’s Yusuke not being able to catch up to a truck all over again lol

while at the end of the same arc, and granted he got a power up but still, he’s crossing like entire countries’ worth of distances in panels

That's exactly what it is.
It's easier to downplay things than to actually argue against them which is why you will have people bring up those examples then go into a tizzy when you bring up Saitama failing to kill a Mosquito, can't even hurt someone standing infront of him but somehow destroy everything else behind them, get hurt by a cat and fail to get to a battlefield in any decent capacity or the same thing happening to Deku.

 

[Flowering Knight]

I will say I think arguing “from the narrative” is actually valid and one of the most important ways you evaluate potential outliers

the issue is what SB specifically calls breaking the narrative, and what actually breaks/contradicts it are completely different things

when they are arguing that JoJo characters can’t be ftl because it breaks the setting/narrative/etc they aren’t arguing it against anything that the author is actually stating in the story, they’re arguing it against their personal opinion on what should be realistic or consistent for that setting, and whether they are hypothetically right about this or not it’s a fallacious argument. FTL Stands doesn’t break anything because Araki has constantly reiterated and shown us that stands can move and punch and perceive things at this level.
Bringing up “they should be able to run around the world then” not only doesn’t make much sense (fiction generally treats reaction speeds as higher than travel, jojo just has a bigger discrepancy wrt this), it isn’t actually brought up in the story as a possibility or issue at all. This kind of hardline approach also falls apart when you realize that even low level supersonic characters should not take anywhere near as long as they do to get places. As an argumental tactic it doesn’t hold up for any measure of superspeed, their subjective disbelief just isn’t being suspended here so they throw out the feat.
JoJo is an extreme example of this, but even series with a much average higher power and speed like Toriko, look how long it can take them to travel their planet. It’s everywhere in fiction, it may as well just be a trope at this point.

Regarding pros, outliers are a good place to consult the narrative. I complain about IDW Transformers being wanked to universal a lot and it is because the narrative contradicts and doesn’t support it. Characters supposedly using “universe level attacks” during an arc where they need significant prep and equipment to allow one universe to bleed into the next. Characters tanking universal attacks in one arc (that were never confirmed to be that strong) then time and time again being nearly killed by planet level attacks and far lower. No matter how you slice it, the feats aren’t consistent and they certainly don’t match up to how we are actually told they or the story are playing out.

Pretty much also the reason why FTL One Piece isn't accepted yet. Sure, we may have had the odd FTL calc in the past, and there are a good amount of feats that definitely look (and some that are) FTL... but until someone's able to actually outspeed Kizaru then none of that stuff is accepted.

 

[Paxton]

Pretty much also the reason why FTL One Piece isn't accepted yet. Sure, we may have had the odd FTL calc in the past, and there are a good amount of feats that definitely look (and some that are) FTL... but until someone's able to actually outspeed Kizaru then none of that stuff is accepted.

Wait, didn't Garp literally react to Kizaru when he was light in Sabaody?