To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - One Othinus To Rule Them All

[Astaro]

There’s Dark Matter too which can make itself intangible too that Accelerator still reflects.

Something being tangible or intangible is irrelevant. It just needs to have a vector behind it

 

[Paxton]

Touma noting the thing that emerged from Imagine Breaker being destroyed in his clash with Kamisato’s World Rejector was both different and much stronger than the entity that emerged when against Othinus



Coronzon destroying Imagine Breaker was the last straw as the power becomes uncontrollable now

To continue this discussion: basically, yeah.

The stuff beyond the right arm's power is dependent on both how much damage is done to Imagine Breaker/Touma's right arm, and his will to harm/kill.

The way I see it:

WW3 IT > the IT that Othinus crushed in NT4
the IT that overpowered World Rejector > the IT that Othinus crushed in NT4
the IT that roared and one shot the Queen Brittania's temple/had Coronzon utterly fucked up > the IT that Othinus crushed in NT4

(I've no idea where to put the Railgun T dragons/the dragon that showed up against Izzard(they're all the same thing), but they're probably below all of these)

She basically sneak attacked Touma and he had no reason to have much killing intent at the moment.
It's arguably the weakest form of the IT.



I just don't think there's anything that suggests that Othinus is stronger than LPSAD Fiamma, since Fiamma himself would scale above Dainsleif calamities (like Abaddon) who already scale to Othinus per her own words.

There's a reason Aleister waited until Fiamma wasn't at his full strength to attack him is all I'm saying

 

[Astaro]

Sneak attacking Touma hardly matters since against Fiamma, he had no desire to kill or seriously harm him and Fiamma forced it out.

Hell Touma goes on to save Fiamma over his own life right afterwards, putting him in an escape shuttle while he stays behind on the collapsing Star of Bethlehem to deal with Gabriel

Likewise, Coronzon did a sneak attack in their last confrontation, using the AAA to tear off his arm from behind the same way Othinus ambushed him.

So it doesn’t really play a part since every single time it’s brought out safe for against CRC, it’s not intentionally on Touma’s part

 

[Paxton]

I was re-reading OT22, and the Invisible Thing doesn't even beat Fiamma, funnily enough.
Not sure why people think it did.

It blocks the generic light beam attack and has him shook, sure, but that's all it does before Touma shuts it down and recovers Imagine Breaker... which reverts Fiamma into his pre-LPSAD state.

Even then, Fiamma had the Imagine Breaker arm inside his body after having disassembled it. However, he could tell the shining power was gradually fading from the flesh and blood he had acquired. It was such a unique power that two of it could not exist within the same world. The scene made Fiamma think that such a rule must exist. And that rule might also have been that the true power could only reside within the right arm if it was attached to the boy known as Kamijou Touma.

A tremendous shock shook the Star of Bethlehem.

The golden light had exploded.

“What…?”

But a great disaster did not assault the earth as Fiamma of the Right had expected. Nor was the earth dyed gold like the heavens. The great amount of Telesma that was fired down from the Star of Bethlehem was obstructed by something.

“That should have reached the necessary output!! That should have created the amount of destruction on the earth needed to complete the conditions for my strategy effectively supporting my victory!! What happened…!?”

The tragedy he wished for had not occurred.

Instead of recognizing the increase in malice, the tragedy had been held in check which had wiped the dark parts from the people’s hearts.

It may have been nothing more than a temporary excited feverishness similar to the global unity felt only during a sports festival.

But even if it was only for a moment, the people of the earth felt that they were all the world needed.

They felt that anyone offering salvation while looking down on them should just fuck off.

“Is that enough for you?”

Kamijou Touma stepped forward with his fist still clenched.

He took one, two, three steps.

“It’s time for you to give it a rest with this illusion of yours.”

Kamijou’s power had not been increased. Imagine Breaker was nothing more than Imagine Breaker.


Fiamma’s third arm that responded to malice had been weakened to the point that it could be destroyed by even Imagine Breaker. Small pieces of virtue had spread like ripples until they had filled the entire surface of the earth effectively breaking the core that supported Fiamma’s power.


The power that made Fiamma of the Right special no longer existed.


It was doubtful whether he could use his direct attacks with his third arm or his evasion using instantaneous horizontal movement over kilometers.

Given that, he had no way of stopping Kamijou Touma’s advance.

 

[Paxton]

Remind me, is the only difference between pre and post LPSAD Fiamma that he can use a bunch of miracles and no longer has a usage limit on the Holy Right?

 

[Astaro]

I was re-reading OT22, and the Invisible Thing doesn't even beat Fiamma, funnily enough.
Not sure why people think it did.

Didn’t matter, all the power he accumulated in that state and he was an ant compared to that Invisible power

An invisible power gathered.

It gathered in that right arm that should not exist. It gathered beyond that wound.

(…)

Fiamma moved only his eyeballs to look at what was growing from his own right shoulder.

He had indeed taken in that boy’s right hand and that hand that he had made his own flesh and blood still possessed Imagine Breaker, the unique power to negate all supernatural powers.

Then what was the power gathering inside the enemy before Fiamma’s eyes?

(Something…)

Fiamma felt his lips quickly drying up. He had finally acquired the right arm of Imagine Breaker. He had made all sorts of major preparations in order to obtain that strange right hand that acted as the final key. As long as he had his own power and that boy’s right arm that had been disassembled and reorganized into a spiritual item, he could save the entire world. He had obtained something with that much value and yet…

He was inferior.

He was overshadowed.

The great swirl of power compressing toward that boy’s shoulder felt so threatening that it seemed to suck the color out of everything Fiamma had obtained.

It blocks the generic light beam attack and has him shook, sure, but that's all it does before Touma shuts it down and recovers Imagine Breaker... which reverts Fiamma into his pre-LPSAD state.

In other words, Touma literally saved his life from certain death.

Scaling is as followed: Othinus > WWIII Invisible Thing > any version of Fiamma. Every confrontation Fiamma has with a Magic God shows he’s vastly outclassed

Remind me, is the only difference between pre and post LPSAD Fiamma that he can use a bunch of miracles and no longer has a usage limit on the Holy Right?

Brought Heaven down to Earth, and stated to casually destroy the planet and recreate the miracles of the Bible.

Notably, Fiamma himself doesn’t believe he’s even as strong as God and considers the name overblown, he just knows it’s enough power to save the world.

If I wield the power that should originally have been within me at its full output, the salvation of all will be complete. After all, my arm possesses the power to save the entire world. People may refer to that as being The One Above God, but… I do not particularly care about that. I do not intend to match or exceed him. I only intend to gather all the power I have now and to save the world with it.”

^ The above also explains the difference, namely that with Imagine Breaker used as a tool for purifying his Holy Right, LPSAD is him essentially at full power

His acquisition of Index’s controller to acquire all her 103,000 Grimoires knowledge already addressed his limited use of the Holy Right. W/ Index he can use Holy Right all he wants.

Needless to say, Fiamma is in no way in Othinus’ league. This is one of the most clear cut and consistent portrayal of the differences in power shown between characters.

You got Othinus even while under the 50/50 restriction still able to fight Fiamma and Ollerus at the same time. And when she achieves 100%, it’s an offscreen curbstomp in her favor.

Against the IT, Fiamma was outright described as completely outmatched against it to where a fight didn’t need to be done to prove this.

Same IT gets effortlessly crushed by Othinus to establish how powerful she herself is.

To make another comparison, we know from Accelerator that Gabriel (and by extension Michael, the source of Fiamma’s power) is vastly weaker to Aiwass and by extension Coronzon whose just slightly stronger than Aiwass with her avatar.

Coronzon’s consistently stated to more or less rival Othinus at her full power when she had her lance

 

[Paxton]

Scaling is as followed: Othinus > WWIII Invisible Thing > any version of Fiamma. Every confrontation Fiamma has with a Magic God shows he’s vastly outclassed

Nothing directly supports the Invisible Thing in in NT4 being as strong as it was in WW3 though.

We had this discussion already, didn't we?

Brought Heaven down to Earth, and stated to casually destroy the planet and recreate the miracles of the Bible.

I know it has those statements, and I already mentioned the latter.

But the Holy Right explicitly doesn't use raw power for the former statement to even make sense to bring up, and Fiamma utilizing the full power of Michael "only" (even though that's not it's actual stated limit, but you get the point) being able to destroy a planet is nonsensical, when Dainsleif calamities already scale to Othinus' destruction.

the appearance of the different mythical figures would have created a mysterious phenomenon much like Angel Fall.
Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the world itself and everything would have shattered like glass.
Having destroyed the world herself, Othinus knew that was no exaggeration.
“That truly is an appropriate weapon for opposing a Magic God.”

This may just be me nitpicking though.

Needless to say, Fiamma is in no way in Othinus’ league. This is one of the most clear cut and consistent portrayal of the differences in power shown between characters.

You got Othinus even while under the 50/50 restriction still able to fight Fiamma and Ollerus at the same time. And when she achieves 100%, it’s an offscreen curbstomp in her favor.

Against the IT, Fiamma was outright described as completely outmatched against it to where a fight didn’t need to be done to prove this.

Same IT gets effortlessly crushed by Othinus to establish how powerful she herself is.

Again, the IT in NT4 doesn't have anything going for it that directly puts it at the same level as it was in WW3, and Othinus never even fights LPSAD Fiamma.

To make another comparison, we know from Accelerator that Gabriel (and by extension Michael, the source of Fiamma’s power) is vastly weaker to Aiwass and by extension Coronzon whose just slightly stronger than Aiwass with her avatar.

Coronzon’s consistently stated to more or less rival Othinus at her full power when she had her lance

What makes Aiwass stronger than Gabriel or Michael though?

The former was weakened throughout OT, and the latter, like you already know, is stated by the narration to be capable of reaching the Pure World and killing Aiwass in the Pure World with Curtana Original's dimension severing (I should specify this is more of a range feat rather than a power/hax feat), if it hit, anyway, which itself is only capable of doing so because it sources power from Michael.




The scaling, if we're using your logic, goes like this:

Othinus > NT4 Invisible Thing = WW3 Invisible Thing > LPSAD Fiamma ~ Dainsleif calamities (which are literally just phase beings brought down from the higher phases/Four Worlds into the surface world)
but the Dainsleif calamities themselves are stated to be a proper weapon to fight a Magic God, per Othinus herself


so how's that supposed to work then?

 

[Paxton]

Wait, maybe Fiamma doesn't draw upon the actual full power of Michael with the Holy Right to begin with

Or maybe I'm retarded, who knows

 

[Astaro]

Nothing directly supports the Invisible Thing in in NT4 being as strong as it was in WW3 though.

We had this discussion already, didn't we?

Yeah and nothing concrete to argue it was weaker and much more evidence it was if anything stronger.

And regardless, Fiamma was an ant next to the IT against him while Othinus casually destroyed it. She actually scales above it

I know it has those statements, and I already mentioned the latter.

But the Holy Right explicitly doesn't use raw power for the former statement to even make sense to bring up, and Fiamma utilizing the full power of Michael "only" (even though that's not it's actual stated limit, but you get the point) being able to destroy a planet is nonsensical, when Dainsleif calamities already scale to Othinus' destruction.

Its just stated Fiamma can easily destroy a planet not that that is his limit.

Dainsleif calamities cause reality to shatter only when an untold number of them are summoned, we know from Gabriel that none of them can do that on their own, at most accomplishing an Angel Fall like incident individually

This may just be me nitpicking though.



Again, the IT in NT4 doesn't have anything going for it that directly puts it at the same level as it was in WW3, and Othinus never even fights LPSAD Fiamma.

Read above, nothing is insinuated that it’s weaker. Othinus acknowledged WWIII allowed it to develop but was thoroughly unimpressed with the end result

What makes Aiwass stronger than Gabriel or Michael though?

The former was weakened throughout OT, and the latter, like you already know, is stated by the narration to be capable of reaching the Pure World and killing Aiwass in the Pure World with Curtana Original's dimension severing (I should specify this is more of a range feat rather than a power/hax feat), which itself is only capable of doing so because it sources power from Michael.

That full power Gabriel is pure speculation and at best, is as strong as Coronzon with her vessel which I seriously doubt. Kamachi clearly wrote Gabriel as inferior to Aiwass

From the earlier clash Accelerator had analyzed his opponents. Although both angels were monsters, they were not on the same level as Aiwass. Reflection and vector control worked perfectly upon the angel of science. As for the angel who had unknown origins, from the way it was being knocked around by the AIM angel, it was also a far cry from Aiwass in terms of power. For, Accelerator could not even begin to think of a way to defeat Aiwass.

As for Curtana (Archangel Michael) being able to harm Aiwass, it was specifically emphasizing its power to reach the Pure World Aiwass resides in with its Omnidimensional severing and the power system in Toaru’s Magic side allows enough leyway for weaker opponents to harm stronger ones that are careless or less skilled otherwise

The scaling, if we're using your logic, goes like this:

Othinus > NT4 Invisible Thing = WW3 Invisible Thing > LPSAD Fiamma ~ Dainsleif calamities (which are literally just phase beings brought down from the higher phases/Four Worlds into the surface world)
but the Dainsleif calamities themselves are stated to be a proper weapon to fight a Magic God, per Othinus herself


so how's that supposed to work then?

Why not? Fiamma should be much stronger than them given how Touma could negate and destroy several calamities summoned by Marian and again, they achieve Magic God level destruction through a combined effort of enough of them being summoned in the world

 

[Paxton]

Yeah and nothing concrete to argue it was weaker and much more evidence it was if anything stronger.

And regardless, Fiamma was an ant next to the IT against him while Othinus casually destroyed it. She actually scales above it


Its just stated Fiamma can easily destroy a planet not that that is his limit.

Dainsleif calamities cause reality to shatter only when an untold number of them are summoned, we know from Gabriel that none of them can do that on their own, at most accomplishing an Angel Fall like incident individually



Read above, nothing is insinuated that it’s weaker. Othinus acknowledged WWIII allowed it to develop but was thoroughly unimpressed with the end result



That full power Gabriel is pure speculation and at best, is as strong as Coronzon with her vessel which I seriously doubt. Kamachi clearly wrote Gabriel as inferior to Aiwass



As for Curtana (Archangel Michael) being able to harm Aiwass, it was specifically emphasizing its power to reach the Pure World Aiwass resides in with its Omnidimensional severing and the power system in Toaru’s Magic side allows enough leyway for weaker opponents to harm stronger ones that are careless or less skilled otherwise


Why not? Fiamma should be much stronger than them given how Touma could negate and destroy several calamities summoned by Marian and again, they achieve Magic God level destruction through a combined effort of enough of them being summoned in the world

We're going to have to just agree to disagree on the IT's level of strength at this point, since it's not exactly clear-cut in this case when we know it's strength varies based on Touma's mindset/how much damage is done to his arm.


Anyway...

Dainsleif calamities cause reality to shatter only when an untold number of them are summoned, we know from Gabriel that none of them can do that on their own, at most accomplishing an Angel Fall like incident individually

That's not actually stated, to my knowledge, unless you have the quote that says that.
Marian would have no need to create a barrier to contain any of the calamities if the summoning of only one wouldn't cause an event like Angel Fall or Othinus' destruction to occur.


Also... "at most accomplishing an Angel Fall like incident individually"?

Angel Fall affects the entirety of the Four Worlds.
The surface world/phases in the surface world shattering like glass is the lesser effect in terms of scale.






A full power Gabriel is no different than true Gremlin: both need to nerf themselves/be nerfed to manifest in the surface world without destroying it, minus the Pure World.
Coronzon has to nerf herself in the same manner as both examples above to manifest in the surface world.


It's hardly speculation when this is consistent with how phase beings/beings from higher up on the Sephiroth work throughout the series.
They can't manifest in reality without a physical vessel because they either dissipate or nuke shit like true Gremlin do.

Why not? Fiamma should be much stronger than them given how Touma could negate and destroy several calamities summoned by Marian and again, they achieve Magic God level destruction through a combined effort of enough of them being summoned in the world

I don't get your question.

Dainsleif calamities ~ LPSAD Fiamma
Othinus, by your logic, would be at least 2 tiers above him
But Othinus ~ Dainsleif calamities, per her own words (she says she'd be able to kill/stop Marian from ever using it in the first place, not that she can one shot the calamities with ease if she were at her full power).

Do you not see the issue?

 

[Astaro]

We're going to have to just agree to disagree on the IT's level of strength at this point, since it's not exactly clear-cut when we know it's strength varies.

Anyway...

What I’m saying is saying it’s somehow weaker against Othinus than with Fiamma is throughly baseless

That's not actually stated, to my knowledge.

Also... "at most accomplishing an Angel Fall like incident individually"?

Angel Fall affects the entirety of the Four Worlds.
The surface world/phases in the surface world shattering like glass is the lesser effect in terms of scale.

This says otherwise:

Before the battle even began, Marian had likely used the sword to cut through the
surrounding space and create a sort of barrier around the area. If she had not, the
appearance of the different mythical figures would have created a mysterious
phenomenon much like Angel Fall. Or the power could have exceeded the limits of the
world itself and everything would have shattered like glass.

Seriously Pax, are you arguing Angel Fall over Othinus’ NT10 feats or Magic Gods destroying the universe with their presence?

Marian would have no need to create a barrier to contain any of the calamities if the summoning of only one wouldn't cause an event like Angel Fall or Othinus' destruction to occur.

Or that she simply set up the barrier before the battle which is the best possible time anyway

A full power Gabriel is no different than true Gremlin: both need to nerf themselves/be nerfed to manifest in the surface world without destroying it, minus the Pure World.

Citation for Gabriel being able to destroy the world like Magic Gods. This is the most Kamachi describes them as capable of doing:

But Mathers was not crushed by the weight of the world.

His four Symbolic Weapons came apart.

“It is not unusual to see angels before him. Thus, the archangels of fire, water, wind, and earth will naturally descend to guard him!!”

One wielded a sword, one carried lily flowers, one protected an adventurer, and one guarded the gates of hell.

All of a sudden, there were four of those winged higher beings.

Each of them carried enough firepower to obliterate this unclean world. The pressure from Gabriel alone had caused the entire world to audibly strain to the breaking point when driven down from heaven by Angel Fall.

^ And as the scan just before shows, destroying the world > Angel Fall. Nevermind all 4 Archangels were basically cannon fodder Aleister easily destroys right afterwards.

But Aleister simply twirled around.

The bottom of the palm staff scraped against the ground, orange sparks scattered, and it set ablaze.

This too was not found in the bible.

In fact, she called on the name of an angel who had been criticized for not being mentioned in the bible.

“Uriel is the excommunicated angel, a demon who fell to the depths of the earth. Uriel is one of the seven who was driven from their throne of light for humanity’s convenience and is not found in the stories of God. The canon is absolute. In the name of Pope Zachary, I shall smash your angel worship and thus your harmony with those four!!”

First, a protective circle appeared around the silver girl.

Then great waves of explosive flames burst out across the 180 degrees in front of her.

The fires of hell erupted from the depths of the earth and rejected the protector of their gate. Just like a red light covering up red writing. Once one collapsed, the others were dragged down with it. The four angels dissolved like a false image and the massive flames continued on to burn Mathers.

I don't get your question.

Dainsleif calamities ~ LPSAD Fiamma
Othinus, by your logic, would be at least 2 tiers above him
But Othinus ~ Dainsleif calamities, per her own words (she says she'd be able to kill/stop Marian from ever using it in the first place, not that she can one shot the calamities with ease if she were at her full power).

Do you not see the issue?

Read above. Nothing disproves what I said before which is:

Why not? Fiamma should be much stronger than them given how Touma could negate and destroy several calamities summoned by Marian and again, they achieve Magic God level destruction through a combined effort of enough of them being summoned in the world

 

[Paxton]

I am going to argue affecting the Four Worlds is a better feat because it directly is better in terms of scale.

 

[Astaro]

Scan says otherwise for how Angel Fall stacks up to it

 

[Paxton]

So is destroying the current phase in the surface world (Assiah) better than affecting the entire cosmology (Assiah, Yetzirah, Briah, and Atziluth)?

 

[Paxton]

Damn... Magic Gods can destroy the entire Sephiroth and make a new canvas all along

 

[Paxton]

Also, you literally just posted a quote that says that the summoning of a weakened Gabriel in WW3 alone was straining the world to it's breaking point.

Which is, coincidentally enough, the same wording used for both Dainsleif calamities (which are just other phase beings from the religious phases likely located in Briah) and true Gremlin... interesting how that works

 

[Astaro]

Damn... Magic Gods can destroy the entire Sephiroth and make a new canvas all along

Because Othinus did? She destroyed every Phase safe for the Hidden World and possibly Pure World and we know the Sephiroth is just more of a collection of Phases

And the Four Worlds hierarchy was already called out as in-series bullshit when it comes to determining power by the Magic Gods who proved it when they showed they were more than capable of fighting Coronzon who both rules over and can destroy the Sephiroth with her power while they themselves were nerfed at the time,

 

[Astaro]

Also, you literally just posted a quote that says that the summoning of a weakened Gabriel in WW3 alone was straining the world to it's breaking point.

Which is, coincidentally enough, the same wording used for both Dainsleif calamities and true Gremlin... interesting how that works

To its breaking point (Angel Fall) not actually achieving said breaking point.

Also im being pretty civil discussing this with you, so enough with the smugness

 

[Paxton]

Because Othinus did? She destroyed every Phase safe for the Hidden World and possibly Pure World and we know the Sephiroth is just more of a collection of Phases

And the Four Worlds hierarchy was already called out as in-series bullshit when it comes to determining power by the Magic Gods who proved it when they showed they were more than capable of fighting Coronzon who both rules over and can destroy the Sephiroth with her power while they themselves were nerfed at the time,

Othinus never affected the religious phases (likely) located in Briah. When is this stated?
There are several quotes explicitly saying the scope of Magic Gods is limited to affecting things in Assiah, i.e. the surface world.


And no, the Sephiroth isn't just a collection of phases. When is this ever stated as well?


Called out as in-series bullshit.. how, exactly?

By the nerfed Coronzon stalemating a singular nerfed Magic God?
With the former being nerfed way more than the latter by the very fundamentals of how the Kabbalah/Four Worlds work?
And said character also not treating the latter remotely seriously, since her ritual would kill the former anyway?



Coronzon occupies the Abyss in between Briah and Atziluth to stop people from gaining knowledge of the upper 3 Sephirah (Binah, Chokmah, and Keter) and Da'at.
She doesn't rule over it like an omnipotent god and most certainly doesn't destroy the Sephiroth at will.

 

[Paxton]

Magic Gods being able to affect the entire cosmology just doesn't work on a fundamental level.