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To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - One Othinus To Rule Them All

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
I'm serious when I've said before that understanding the Kabbalah/Four Worlds is incredibly important to understanding the series.

Please re-read the series with that stuff as a framework and we can continue this discussion then, otherwise we're just going to be going in circles about this stuff.
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
Othinus never affected the religious phases located in Briah. When is this stated?
There are several quotes explicitly saying the scope of Magic Gods is limited to affecting things in Assiah, i.e. the surface world.
When she explicitly destroyed every Phase in existence safe for the Hidden Phase

"It may have been wrong to refer to that place as dark. In fact, the word “place” was not entirely accurate either. Non-existent things could not be explained. Nevertheless, a few voices lurked within where no one could interfere.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

Or the fact that as Coronzon herself said in her plan, destroying every Phase with her ceremony destroying the Pure World would include destroying the tree.

And no, the Sephiroth isn't just a collection of phases. When is this ever stated as well?

When Crowley sends Coronzon from the Surface World back to her place in the Abyss within the Sephiroth, it invovles traversing through several Phases

"This is not thy place, but I forbid thee to depart!! I shall now intentionally enact a failed exorcism. Great Demon Coronzon, return to thy rightful world while thy power is torn into the almighty number of 11!!"

Magician Aleister Crowley really did seem to be coughing up blood as she yelled the words.

If you thought of a summoning circle like a warp gate from cheap science fiction, then what would happen if you threw someone into a malfunctioning gate and entered the coordinates using a staticky signal? The power to forcibly send her back between phases would slice Coronzon apart like a wire through a hardboiled egg.


Called out as in-series bullshit.. how, exactly?

By the nerfed Coronzon stalemating a singular nerfed Magic God?
With the former being nerfed way more than the latter by the very fundamentals of how the Kabbalah/Four Worlds work?
Nothing nerfed about Coronzon. Nerfed Niang Niang sent her packing while calling her out about underestimating a Magic God with her Surface / Human World only BS

Coronzon occupies the Abyss in between Briah and Atziluth to stop people from gaining knowledge of the upper 3 Sephirah.
She doesn't rule over it like an omnipotent god and most certainly doesn't destroy the Sephiroth at will.
Literally comes with being second only to God in terms of her power over the tree.

Ask yourself this. How do the summons together from Dainsleif and Gabriel alone, explicitly inferior to Magic Gods affect the 4 Worlds yet somehow Magic Gods do not?
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
I'm serious when I've said before that understanding the Kabbalah/Four Worlds is incredibly important to understanding the series.

Please re-read the series with that stuff as a framework and we can continue this discussion then, otherwise we're just going to be going in circles about this stuff.
I’d rather just use facts and feats from the actual novel instead

Like your own Dainselif calamities argument confirming Magic Gods destroying the world > Angel Fall in the amount of power needed to do so
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
Magic Gods affecting the entirety of the Sephiroth despite explicitly being unable to create a new canvas


lmao
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
Why does Niang-Niang outright say Magic Gods are limited to Assiah?

Why do Magic Gods have no access to pure elements? (In reference to them being limited to Assiah/the surface world)

Why does High Priest say he failed to ascend to the status of a Buddha and remained at the level of a Magic God instead?

Why are Magic Gods unable to enter Heaven/Briah?

Why are Magic Gods explicitly said to not have crossed the Abyss, even with their ability to affect the entire Sephiroth?

Nerfed true Gremlin can actively still destroy the world, yet Coronzon, their general equal, still has to perform a ceremony to send a mass of power downwards the Pure World to cause the rest of the Sephiroth/Sephirah above the Pure World (Assiah Gashmi) to destroy it all, which would kill Magic Gods.
You yourself said that Coronzon would be stronger than Dainsleif calamities.


Why is it a plot point that Magic Gods, despite phase manipulation apparently affecting the entirety of reality, can't create an actual new canvas, and can only make changes to the current one?





None of this makes a lick of sense if they can affect the entire cosmology.
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
Why does Niang-Niang outright say Magic Gods are limited to Assiah?
And then goes on to say it’s irrelevant since just maxing out your skills at Assiah enough lets you outright kick the ass of anything higher even while nerfed

Why do Magic Gods have no access to pure elements? (In reference to them being limited to Assiah/the surface world)
Better question, why do they need it when they have access to stronger Magic. Four Worlds hierarchy gives you access to some exclusive stuff sure but again, it doesn’t equate to power.

Why does High Priest say he failed to ascend to the status of a Buddha and remained at the level of a Magic God instead?
What does Buddha have anything to do with Kabbalah? Presumably being a Buddha is even better than a Magic God or at least less a corruption than a Magic God is but that’s all that’s implied

Why are Magic Gods unable to enter Heaven/Briah?
Who said that? Othinus literally destroyed Heaven along with every other Phase and a chump like Fiamma can call down Heaven.
Why are Magic Gods explicitly said to not have crossed the Abyss, even with their ability to affect the entire Sephiroth?
Because they’ve chosen a different path that if anything, yields them better results based on feats regardless

Nerfed true Gremlin can actively still destroy the world, yet Coronzon, their general equal, still has to perform a ceremony to send a mass of power downwards the Pure World to cause the rest of the Sephiroth/Sephirah above the Pure World (Assiah Gashmi) to destroy it all, which would kill Magic Gods.
You yourself said that Coronzon would be stronger than Dainsleif calamities.
Good so far.
Why is it a plot point that Magic Gods, despite phase manipulation apparently affecting the entirety of reality, can't create an actual new canvas, and can only make changes to the current one?
They very much can. Othinus literally creates destroys and remakes new Phases throughout Volume 9. The most she said is that it’s easier to just remake a current one rather than destroy and rebuild from scratch not that that’s a problem for her either.
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
So, just to be clear, you think Magic Gods can rewrite everything except the Pure World?

Or no?
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
Yes, probably the Pure World too at that. The only thing confirmed not destroyed was the Hidden Phase
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
Yeah but how's that supposed to work in your eyes then?

They sure as hell can't affect the Pure World with phase manipulation, and destroying the Pure World = the rest of the Sephiroth above goes down as well.


The Hidden Phase should be no exception.
 
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Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
Magic Gods should have literally nothing they can't do nor ANY anti-feats to speak of if they have complete, unlimited control over the entirety of existence.


And yet, as I mentioned before, there are things they cannot do.

So what gives?


Is every anti-feat they have just self-inflicted, or does it make more sense to believe that they aren't the top dogs of the series?
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
Why are Magic Gods unable to enter Heaven/Briah?
Yet we
did not rise to this position through the normal means, so the gates of the Pure Land or
of heaven will not open for us.

This is the quote I was referring to btw
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
Yeah but how's that supposed to work in your eyes then?

They sure as hell can't affect the Pure World with phase manipulation, and destroying the Pure World = the rest of the Sephiroth above goes down as well.


The Hidden Phase should be no exception.
Even when Curtana Original alone can

Or Coronzon carrying out a Magic ceremony while at a high rough power
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
Even when Curtana Original alone can

Or Coronzon carrying out a Magic ceremony while at a high rough power

Michael and Coronzon are beings from Briah and actually have the capability to affect more than Assiah.
Magic Gods cannot do so.
Magic God Niang-Niang’s invisible scorpion tail—the collection of recreated sparks—was swept away and erased by the explosive flames. Just like the stars in the night sky were swept away by the dawn.

“I see. Coronzon lurks behind the Sephiroth, not the Qliphoth. You’re a demon, but you’re also a gatekeeper who never falls from the tree. I see, I see. You form your power from the laws of the Olam Beriah, not the Olam Asiyah! Yeah, this is interesting!! You can probably earn a participation trophy and an ‘A for Effort’ for this!!”


The pure elements did not exist in this world and they would never mix with anything else.

Just like pure water and monopoles behaved differently just by being a single pure thing.
Even if it did not have the perfect negation ability of Imagine Breaker, it could push the enemy away like a moving wall.
Gabriel controlled the same water anyone could use, so why was that archangel such a threat? This was the same.
The element was identical, but the level of purity was far greater.

“Don’t screw with me, you fool who refuses to break down. You are no more than someone who decided to stop partway up the mountain."

Ignore direct power level comparisons just for one second, please.

What do you think Niang-Niang is implying with this quote?
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
RDT_20240312_1006264258551812197662327.jpg
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
Fuck’s sake. I just looked it up and of course it’s unrelated context. It’s about High Priest’s failure to achieve Enlightenment and having to settle for the impure existence of being a Magic God, the Heaven and Pure Land in this context referring to overcoming the cycle of reincarnation and achieving Nirvana, not the Phase of Heaven or Pure World
Michael and Coronzon are beings from Briah and actually have the capability to affect more than Assiah.
Magic Gods cannot do so.
Already told you why this means nothing,
Ignore direct power level comparisons just for one second, please.
No.
What do you think Niang-Niang is implying with this quote?
Read above
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
You didn't tell me why it means nothing.
You said it doesn't automatically make them stronger in a direct fight (which is fine).

The original claim was that Magic Gods can affect the Four Worlds.
That quote directly says they can't, from one of their own.

Coronzon - forms power from Briah
Niang-Niang - forms power from Assiah
 
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