Circus of Humorous & Humiliating Arguments Part 4 Part 2: Electric Boogaloo

[Xhominid The Apex]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/naruto-sasuke-boruto-and-kawaki-vs-fate-gauntlet.1147865/page-3?post=99374069#post-99374069

Sasuke and Boruto both have teleportation techniques, which is I think a major factor. Even very powerful foes with huge blasty may find the targets simply not there.

It's not going to be as simple as who has the most raw power offense- or defense.

Both Sasuke's and Boruto's teleports take a massive assload of Chakra to do once. Servants can already sense Magical Energy, especially when it swells up like that.
Teleportation in Naruto is far, far more costly than it is in the Nasuverse, I don't get how that's in any way an "Ace Move".

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/naruto-sasuke-boruto-and-kawaki-vs-fate-gauntlet.1147865/page-3?post=99376784#post-99376784

That's simple for someone with instantaneous teleportation- Sasuke or Boruto can just teleport right behind Gilgamesh/Enkidu and force them into melee so three-sixty-degree NP spam alone is not gonna trap the team no matter how you look at it.

Especially since the presence of either Sasuke or Boruto just makes encirclement obsolete. Naruto too could just disperse them en-masse via teraton-level bombing. Then there's Kawaki to deal with any of the stronger NPs with a wider AOE or stronger effects such as EA which might pose a threat if launched.

Again, their teleportation would be extremely obvious and it's not something either can spam, I have no idea why they keep thinking it's somehow some major grace for either of them(Especially when MomoshikiBoruto was able to take out Sasuke's Rinnegan eye before he even processed what happened and don't tell me he somehow got even faster and stronger because that's BS).

So could Toneri, or just about every single Otsutsuki by their inherent nature as world-devouring parasites

Yeah, that's why Toneri and every other Otsutsuki needed an amp of some kind to get there in the first place... oh wait.
Gugulanna is way above Planetary making this even dumber.

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/naruto-sasuke-boruto-and-kawaki-vs-fate-gauntlet.1147865/page-3?post=99379940#post-99379940

Exactly my point- Vasavi Shakti is an example of a divine construct being an authority, yet sufficient dakka alone can match it in power, same with Excalibur.

Which no one in Naruto has that to match...

For one, Shinjutsu is not an authority so using authority mechanisms for its interactions with those attacks is not exactly a viable form of comparison.

I hope he knows that line of thinking only works in SB/CV because anywhere else? It wouldn't and if anything would further expose Shinjutsu as being wanked out the ass. Rule 13 still exists and no, that wouldn't give Shinjutsu any leeway in the slightest because "it's absolute in the Narutoverse" when that's not true either.

But for feats in that regard, being an Otsutsuki allowed Boruto to resist planet-level reality wrapping that was stated to create the current world and its infinite possibilities. I wouldn't actually take this at word without showings backing it up but as per actual feats, it's planet-level reality wrapping at least and Kawaki's should be greater considering Momoshiki was weaker than Isshiki.

Bro, Sarada took that shit too and no sold it, the fuck are you talking about?! I don't understand this thought process either considering Eida caused the shit through completely unknown means and nothing shows Kawaki has Omnipotence either.

Secondly, Kawaki does not just shrink things, he can also seal them by teleporting them inside a time-stopped dimension. That's something he can do to NPs as well.

Yeah because that should somehow work against Divine Spirits far stronger than Kawaki...

That's generally what someone means when they ask for evidence but I meant showings of divine NPs resisting another authority or reality wrapping in particular, not clashes between authorities.

Simplest answer is the fact that's one of the ways to defeat Caenis' Authority in the Materials:
Just throw a beam stronger than her Authority...
Another is Sefar's ability to ignore all attacks made by civilization and Excalibur blew through that too despite Sefar absorbing a good amount of it. Again, I don't see how Shinjutsu is somehow immune to this when it hilariously is even with people like Shikamaru already slowly breaking through it.

I've read this before and nowhere does it say that divine weapons such as Ea resist reality wrapping in general.

The Noble Phantasm that can destroy Time and Space, that can rip Textures(Reality) itself apart... somehow cannot resist Reality Warping?

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/naruto-sasuke-boruto-and-kawaki-vs-fate-gauntlet.1147865/page-4?post=99400559#post-99400559

Yea that's the thing, 'we're using our divinity but for the other side we're not counting their rules for divinity.' Equivalency rules- if one side has magic only a select few have and the other is broadly available, the less restrictive isn't suddenly bound by the more restrictive's rules.

Trying to say the other's divinity doesn't count just seems to be picking rules to be more convenient.

That and you greatly overstate how restrictive type moon divinity is.

No, it very, very much counts because who counts as a "God" in one setting may not even remotely be close to a "God" in a different setting altogether, it's the same shit here when it comes to who can qualify to have a Divinity on par with Nasuverse's take on it to matter against them or to deal with their Authorities.

The Otsutsuki are a presence across many worlds and definitely have mythologies revolving around them.

Cool, that doesn't mean jack and of shit here.

Also, Hokusai's divinity comes from 'being a herald for higher beings from space.' Being connected to a being with essentially no worship on earth and she got divinity B.

Because Lovecraft literally exists in the Nasuverse... and by that, I mean his books and their presence through cults and otherwise. That's why Foreigners are able to have Divinity and so does the Outer Gods.

And, like, in fate being vaguely related to a god is enough to have some divinity. We have people 'said to be the son of a god with no evidence,' (Alexander), we have 'ate the buddha's fruit,' we have 'has a god in their distant ancestry.'

Completely ignore that Kaguya was literally forgotten and even Hagoromo was reduced to a folk tale... not to mention they aren't bound by the Nasuverse system either.

Oh, yes the 10 tails jinchuuriki are easy, but I will note all biju are legendary monsters created by beings worshipped as gods. It's not hard to argue they're equivalent to divine beasts.

When was ANY of the Bijuu "Worshipped as Gods"?! They was all seen as Demons, that was the exact fucking problem they had with Humanity at large! They wouldn't have any Divinity in the first place.

Sasuke and Naruto are both from clans descended from the Sage of Six Paths and Kaguya, and are the reincarnations of Asura and Indra, and have been directly blessed and given power by the Sage of Six Paths, who seems to be the most worshipped being on the planet. That should be divinity easy in multiple respects and not even a low rank.

Again, it feels like Q99 has no idea what the concept of worship even MEANS because Hagoromo was seen as Fairy Tale and Folklore that no one outwardly even believed was true anymore because Black Zetsu went well out of his way to scrub his and Kaguya's own records(And even fucked with the Uchiha Memorial which requires needing certain Sharingan eyes to even get what happened back then). That is the anti-thesis of worship.

Shinjutsu, possessed by Otsutsuki…. the literal translation is roughly 'divine techniques' and are called 'the works of gods.'

You know how many things are given those same level of prefixes yet don't belong to anyone being a god? That's not how that works in the Nasuverse either(Since again, it requires more than a simple rumor from Iskandar's mom being a child of Zeus before he was given Divinity as a Servant... like everyone else believing it wholeheartedly through his accolades and ability just like Uesegi Kenshin becoming the Avatar of Bishamonten because of her insane strength and stilted to shit emotions gave everyone that impression)

Plus there's the new characters that come from, literally, the god trees.

Again as stated before, just because the Otsutsuki call them that doesn't mean it's true...

Sure there's the raw power, but if you want to use divinity rules, and considering equivalency, rather than 'the only characters that can be argued…' it's way way more 'which characters don't haven an argument, and a strong one at that?'.

I really do love this shit when it comes to Naruto when it's something they don't want to argue for it vs. when they do because it comes off so retardedly backhanded in both cases.
The irony isn't even that I'm saying there is no case for this, the problem is that he's using the absolute worst examples and stretching them to believe it's true(Would Kaguya and Hagoromo have Divinity that can work with how the Nasuverse sees it? Most likely... but they tend to forget Nasuverse Divinity CAN be degraded overtime and it has in fact happened to multiple gods(Especially Medusa) and even Demi-Gods(Gilgamesh forcefully ranked his down). Black Zetsu scrubbed alot of their history away and reduced them to a non-presence and folklore which doesn't even include the former).

The Otsutsuki having "Mythologies" on different planets doesn't work in the Nasuverse and using Outer Gods as an example is stupid as shit considering Raum's entire goal is knowing they exist without seeing it firsthand meaning they always existed in some form of worship or otherwise(And it's not like we see those gods from different worlds suddenly appear and become gods on Nasuverse Earth, the Machine Gods had to be seen and recognized as such before they became the Olympian Pantheon, same with Velber 01 becoming Sefar, the Great God of Destruction.)

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/ryomen-sukuna-jjk-runs-an-arrancar-bleach-gauntlet.1148117/?post=99402458#post-99402458

The Opie that Grimmjow one-shot was already on the verge of death. He literally had a hole in his chest so large that you could fit a basket ball inside it.

No he really wasn't, this gets overplayed real hard considering Kisuke only blew a hole through his chest, something survivable even by the Shinigami(Shunsui had a huge hole blown through him by Lille in the final battle and that barely did shit to him).

He was moving his body using Rasontengai (the same skill Uryu used against Mayuri). In other words, he was literally puppeteering his own body using Reishi strings. That's how weakened he was. Even his Reishi-Wings had dissapeared.

I don't see how that makes your point any better when on Uryu's side, Rasontengai was used because Mayuri paralyzed his fucking limbs...
This also ignores how and why Rasontengai even exists:

Ransōtengai

Ransōtengai (乱装天傀 (らんそうてんがい), Heavenly Wild Puppet Suit; Viz "Disheveled Paradise Puppet") is a Quincy technique. A high level technique which allows the user to control their body parts using strings of Reiryoku controlled by their brain, forming lines or strings made of Reishi. Using this...

bleach.fandom.com

A high level technique which allows the user to control their body parts using strings of Reiryoku controlled by their brain, forming lines or strings made of Reishi. Using this technique, the Quincy can control their body like a marionette, allowing them to move freely despite paralysis, broken limbs, or any other force which would impede normal movement.[1] It was originally created to allow elderly Quincy to fight effectively, and is rare enough that Mayuri Kurotsuchi had never encountered a Quincy who could use it before Uryū Ishida, despite having examined and studied 2661 different individuals.[2]

Using Rasontengai for why Opie was close to death alongside his "Reishi Wings" being gone(Despite him still keeping remnants of Ayon's form on him still being there)is some absolute reach, especially when Blut Vene exists and it's explicitly why Ichigo didn't bleed to death when he fought Kenpachi after his "power up" all but shows Opie wasn't dead or dying.

Secondly, Grimmjow chopped him in half without using his ressureccion, since we see him point his sword at Urahara just after Opie dies (He wouldn't have a sword if he was in released state).

That would literally mean Grimmjow > Volstandigt Ayon Opie considering the above...

All this not even counting that fact that you're trying to argue power levels based on Narita's novels. In the same novels Harribel is so powerful that Yhwach needs to personally defeat her as if any of his Elites couldn't have crushed her.

This literally happened in the anime, you fucking dumbass! Yhwach explicitly fought her on his own and we even see that personally through Nel's account and the backstory of showing that event. Which means Harribel got powered up in the 2 year timeskip because why the fuck else would Yhwach personally fight and defeat Harribel himself when that is never his style?

Also, I don't remember saying that Ayon was equal to Harribel in power. I specifically said that he was likely weaker than her. Guess who else is weaker than her? Grimmjow and Nnoitora. So I can't understand why you felt the need to correct me.

Ayon was able to hurt a Volstandigt Opie pretty fucking badly, the same Opie who is seen as so good at his job that he's the SOLE Sternritter in charge of Heuco Muendo and Yhwach is surprised he died and praised him for fulfilling his duty. Someone who trained other Sternritter and is the only one to show off Ransotengai other than Uryu, the other Quincy that Quilge is surprised that he's weaker than him currently...

Fucking really?

 

[Top59]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/yoriichi-tsugikuni-kny-vs-sanguinius-wh40k.1148297/

 

[Mr.OMG]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/the-shrike-hyperion-cantos-vs-othinus-toaru.1025150/.

And two years ago I thought Othinus was stronger than Phase Beings lol

 

[Paxton]

Magic Gods being infinitely superior to phase beings

Despite no quotes in the series suggesting this

 

[Astaro]

Despite no quotes in the series suggesting this

The fact that Touma can fight and take out several of them vs any Magic God that to this day he doesn’t have a chance in fighting besides his new Dragon King state

“Cut away Asgard of Norse mythology. Summon Surtr, king of the fiery hell.”

A different part of the snowy plain split open and a larger, pitch-black form rose up.

Like a baseball batter, the demon king wielded his giant flaming sword and waited for Kamijou to arrive.

The fire sword flew horizontally.

The seventy meter blade roared with flames and the sound of it slicing the air added a frighteningly deep noise.

This was the same threat as placing a building on its side and swinging it.

As Kamijou flew through the air, he clenched his fist with desperate conviction.

“Ohhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!”

They clashed.

The instant the right fist struck the fire sword, the huge blade broke in two. The outer half of the blade spun through the air and stabbed into the one-armed giant’s chest.

That giant screamed and collapsed.

The flames of the sword’s bottom half had been extinguished. Kamijou crashed into it and rolled across it, but he did not have time to take a breather. Imagine Breaker’s power continued to destroy the giant sword.

It felt like running across a collapsing stone bridge.

He desperately ran toward the base of the sword and the pitch-black giant’s arm, but Marian Slingeneyer interrupted.

“Cut away heaven of Christianity. Summon Abaddon, king of evil consumption”

A great number of black objects formed a cloud in front of him. It was a swarm of tens or even hundreds of thousands of locusts. The brown girl rode the swarm like it was cloud in a picture book and it carried her to the giant sword that continued to be destroyed.

“Marian!!”

“Let it end, you brat. Just like our hopes were taken from us for someone’s personal convenience!!”

Their gazes clashed between them.

Kamijou forgot all about the crumbling footing approaching from behind and he clenched his fist with all his might as he faced the enemy before him.

A voice answered him.

“Cut away Takama-ga-hara of Shinto. Summon Yomotsu-Shikome, the group of black impurities.”

Kamijou saw a great wave of black coal tar rapidly approaching.

It was entirely composed of long, black hair belonging to filthy women. Their slender, branch-like arms could be seen sticking through the gaps in the wave.

Kamijou did not know, but this came from the legend of the infinite impurities of the Yomi-no-Kuni and its master Izanami taking human form. This power was the source of all people’s death in Japanese mythology.

But not knowing may have been the better option.

One was happier not knowing certain things, just as Izanagi’s realization of the truth had opened the furnace of death. In his ignorance, Kamijou was able to slam his fist straight forward.

With the sound of a large amount of human hair being swallowed by a bath drain, the black wave parted down the middle.

However, Marian Slingeneyer may have expected that.

She waited beyond the wave with the gold sword in both hands. She swung it horizontally as if to lop off Kamijou’s head.

Fiamma, Thor, Black Wings Accelerator, and even Leivinia produced attacks that were harder for Touma to negate than the world ending calamities from other Phases Marian used other than Vishnu

 

[Crimson Dragoon]

I believe that, in the beginning, Imperialdramon was stronger than Omegamon based on their fights against Armageddomon.

But then , Tri came out and Omegamon is stronger than Imperialdramon based on his fight against Alphamon and Rosemon and Vikemon killing Imperialdramon.

There’s nothing in the Armageddemon fight that conclusively points out Imperialdramon FM is stronger than Omegamon anyway. Omegamon actually takes a direct hit from one of Armageddemon’s mouth blasts and kept fighting, and a point blank shot was what took him out. Imperialdramon FM didn’t take a mouth blast as well as Omegamon did at the start. Pushing Armageddemon back doesn’t work as an argument either because the far stronger Gigadeath didn’t really budge him. Strikes me as more Armageddemon trying to maneuver than anything.

 

[Paxton]

Weakened imitations of phase beings that he can obviously nullify with Imagine Breaker vs Magic Gods that still ultimately have "human" bodies that he cannot negate with Imagine Breaker
Yeah I'm pretty sure that explains the difference between the two and why he can't beat the latter without the IT


We've never once seen a full power phase being in the surface world in the same way we've never seen a full power Magic God in the surface world, and only the former can affect the entirety of the Four Worlds.
Magic Gods objectively aren't superior to phase beings.



And uh.... Thor's arc fusion blades, Accelerator's black wings, Fiamma's flame sword, and Birdway's attacks definitely do not get through Imagine Breaker through sheer potency.
You and I both know that's not how that works.

All of those (and Innocentius, among other things)) are too much for Imagine Breaker to negate because of the continuous power being supplied through them.
None of these are remotely as strong as Gungnir being thrown, which Imagine Breaker actually succeeds in negating.

 

[Paxton]

Moving on from that..



"almost"

 

[Astaro]

Weakened imitations of phase beings that he can obviously nullify with Imagine Breaker vs Magic Gods that still ultimately have "human" bodies that he cannot negate with Imagine Breaker


Yeah I'm pretty sure that explains the difference between the two and why he can't beat the latter without the IT


We've never once seen a full power phase being in the surface world in the same way we've never seen a full power Magic God in the surface world, and only the former can affect the entirety of the Four Worlds.

Magic Gods objectively aren't superior to phase beings.



Thor's arc fusion blades, Accelerator's black wings, Fiamma's flame sword, and Birdway's attacks do not get through Imagine Breaker through sheer potency.

You and I both know that's not how that works.

All of those (and Innocentius, among other things)) are too much for Imagine Breaker to negate because of the continuous power being supplied through them.

None of these are remotely as strong as Gungnir being thrown, which Imagine Breaker actually succeeds in negating.

Only one mentioned to be summoned as incomplete was Vishnu, hence why all we got was manifestation that only lasted 10 seconds to fire a single attack.

Plus Marian messed up summoning Vishnu, the god of preservation and order who settled for attacking the other calamities present over Touma or Othinus as a result rather than summoning Shiva god of destruction who would have attacked everything indiscriminately

Surtr, the random Greek Titan, Abaddon, and Yomotsu-Shikome were all summoned properly.

Touma stopped Gungnir after hundreds billions of deaths and do-overs let him be essentially extra-effective against stopping Othinus’ attacks.

And everything safe for maybe Thor do go through Imagine Breaker through sheer power.

 

[Paxton]

Gungnir level Innocentius

 

[Astaro]

Gungnir level Innocentius

Difference. For Innocentius, it is negated but it regenerates from the endless power supply of the rune cards at a fast enough regeneration speed to keep up with Imagine Breaker’s negation

 

[Paxton]

Fish of the Supper

The Fish of the Supper (晩餐の魚, Bansan no Sakana?) is a spell used by the Roman Catholic Church. Appearing as a powerful laser-like attack, it is able to go through any obstacle and only attack the target of the spell. Before it can be used the Pope has to personally order it to be used and that...

toarumajutsunoindex.fandom.com

He realized there were indeed spells that Imagine Breaker could not negate in time, such as Stiyl Magnus’s Innocentius and Fiamma of the Right’s Third Arm.

“So is the spell itself simple, but the power is…no, the numbers are too great?”

Gungnir level

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/kagome-and-sesshomaru-invade-the-tomb-of-nazarick.1148348/

huh, kinda of wonder how would seshomaru´s tenseiga work in undead that were never alive

Not sure how that's a question considering Bakusaiga has melted bones too... which are still cells...

Iirc, Kagome and Seshomaru at least have the hax and firepower to compete with Nazarick. But they're too slow, because old anime didn't often show speed feats, cmiiw.

The latest Inuyasha anime at least has the feat, Seshomaru cuts a meteor before it lands. As for the old anime, unfortunately I don't remember.

Sesshoumaru? Slow? In comparison to Overlord which has dick for speed feats?

Man this asskissing never ceases.

 

[Astaro]

Fish of the Supper

The Fish of the Supper (晩餐の魚, Bansan no Sakana?) is a spell used by the Roman Catholic Church. Appearing as a powerful laser-like attack, it is able to go through any obstacle and only attack the target of the spell. Before it can be used the Pope has to personally order it to be used and that...

toarumajutsunoindex.fandom.com

Gungnir level

For Innocentius sure, for Leivinia (who gets compared to Fiamma because of this), it’s because her spell is that strong.

Her attack would cut straight through one edge of the battlefield.

And through the joint of Kamijou Touma's right shoulder.

The boy was still in the middle of holding out his right hand to deal with the summoned explosion that had appeared near his left side. He did not have time to swing his arm back around and block the wind sword. And because he had forcibly twisted his body around, he was very nearly off balance and therefore could not jump back either.

In other words, this was checkmate.

Birdway was worried about the unknown phenomenon that occurred when his arm was severed, but Kamijou himself could not freely control it either. If that was the end of it, that was fine. If he started going on a rampage, that would simply create many, many more openings for her to attack. Just two or three more swings of her arm would end it even if that happened. There was no way he could turn the situation around. It was that kind of decisive checkmate.

But…

However…

The wind sword Birdway fired was knocked away by something.

That something was a pure white light.

It was the light of the summoned explosion that should have been attacking Kamijou Touma.

"What…!?"

This time, Kamijou's actions had left Birdway's expectations. She immediately transformed her symbolic weapon into a wand and held it out horizontally.

It had been his right hand that had caused it.

Imagine Breaker was nothing more than the power to negate supernatural powers. It could not be used for anything other than that. But he could freely move those five fingers and make various different forms out of his hand. And whether it was fire or water, power would naturally flow in the path of least resistance.

Fire would spread in the direction with more oxygen.

Water would flow down a hill.

And…

There were tons of technologies that took advantage of those properties.

For example, guns used a tube made of a strong material to send the explosive power of gunpowder in a single direction to fire a bullet.

For example, directional landmines attached the explosive on the inside of a bowl-shaped panel to use more of its force to pierce through a tank's armor.

Air ducts, electric cables, gas turbines, a crane's wrecking ball, steam locomotives, skis, smokestacks, pasta makers, fuel pumps…and in a broader sense, even the roads that controlled the flows of people.

It was no different from that.

He had not used Imagine Breaker to negate the supernatural power.

He had brought his five fingers right up to its border to create the ultimate "wall" with his right hand. That had created a sort of guide rail that made the direction he wanted into the "path of least resistance" for the explosive power. He had used that to send the summoned explosion in the direction of the wind sword.

"Did you forget? I directly fought Fiamma of the Right."

The unexpected event created an opening in Birdway.

Kamijou kicked off the asphalt in order to make the most use of it. He ran.

"And so I know there are powers with a pressure great enough that I can't completely negate them with my right hand. You just have too much power, Birdway!!"

For Accelerator, same deal. Each of his Black Wings were too powerful to be outright negated

“(Just then…)”

Lessar was going over what she had just witnessed once again in her mind.

“(That guy… caught one of the black wings that split into more than a hundred branches and twisted it…?)”

That boy’s right hand seemed to have the effect of negating any supernatural power. But, because of limits there were cases where massive powers that couldn’t be negated completely ended up only blocked by the right hand. From what she had seen, Fiamma’s special giant sword had taken a while before it was erased completely.

Normally speaking, being unable to negate something completely… should be a disadvantage for him.

But,

Just now, that teenager used that ‘flaw’ to deliberately grab a black wing he couldn’t negate completely. Then twist the wing to make the attacker lose his balance, and create a small safe area when he was surrounded completely by the black wings.

Negation and disruption.

Matching his opponent’s strength, and using his ability for the maximum benefit.

Had this cruel war provided an opportunity to greatly enhance that teenager’s power?

 

[Paxton]

Yeah as much as I'd like to scale Accelerator's black wings to Gungnir even that is a bit much for me

 

[Astaro]

It’s not direct scaling. According to Coronzon, Imagine Breaker’s effectiveness dramatically increases the more supernaturally powerful the opponent is such as a Magic God or a Great Demon like herself.

Thing is even if we argued that boost being applied, IB easily destroyed whatever Calamities Marian summoned as well as their attacks while Coronzon or Magic Gods are still too much for IB

 

[Paxton]

You might want to post that quote again because I don't think it actually says what you think it's saying.

And since when is that the case for Coronzon or Magic Gods?


Coronzon's stuff gets negated just fine after she loses her physical vessel, and Imagine Breaker's whole purpose is to be able to revert phase manipulation/unnatural distorsions of the world (with certain exceptions here and there).

And it also uh, literally negates a Magic God's attack on screen (page?).

 

[Mr.OMG]

Literally me, but instead of Goku, it's ToAru