edit: thinking about it more. You just need to be faster than that person can react so you might not need to be 20x faster than the person in order to statue blitz them
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Misconceptions about VS. Debating
- Thread starter Xhominid The Apex
- Start date
Blade
Peace
Super Perm Banned Modcuz i asked about it, it has good info, after all
It is true, it's damn true.
I need to get started on my next part with WoG and Death of an Author today.
This was probably brought up already, but the No Limits Fallacy cropping up really grinds my gears, and shows that people just don't give a shit and couldn't care less about why showings matter.
A prime example of this, which is recent and very well-known, is Yeehaw, AKA Yhwach and The Almighty ability. Can see into all possible futures and even after death, apparently, Yhwach can use it to come back and give himself the best possible outcome against his opponent, which a number of Bleach fanboys take to mean he can rewrite anything and can always score a W, despite that NOT being how the ability was ever presented in the manga. It had clear limits shown, and even if it was never defeated in the manga, and Yhwach simply won, that still wouldn't mean he could just snag an easy W from anyone with that ability.
He, just like anyone else with a seemingly 'broken' hax, can only be gone off of what it has SHOWN, not what the person THINKS it could hypothetically do, but has no proof of. Yhwach can solo his verse(He can't, but lets just say he can)? Great, his hax power is enough to overcome continental, potentially planet-level folks to get a win. Now, how would his ability fare for him against a galaxy buster? Someone who could one-shot or warp a universe to their heart's desire? Does he have any feats of getting over that with The Almighty? No? Then guess what, the best outcome his ability can afford him, is STILL gonna involve him getting steam-rolled, no matter your head-canon, because the showings just AREN'T there.
No character, no matter how busted their ability seems, and is within their setting, should have it treated like its something that could get them a W regardless of their opponent from another setting, where for all said fan knows, an ability that they preach to be 'OP' could be something more commonplace within the other character's setting, or that said character has dealt with something similar or more potent in showings.
I don't care how great someone's future sight is, for another example, or maybe time-based shenanigans either, if their opponent is so much faster than them that they get blitzed before the synapses in their brain even have the CHANCE to start firing off with a response, and they're dead before they even know what the fuck just happened.
A prime example of this, which is recent and very well-known, is Yeehaw, AKA Yhwach and The Almighty ability. Can see into all possible futures and even after death, apparently, Yhwach can use it to come back and give himself the best possible outcome against his opponent, which a number of Bleach fanboys take to mean he can rewrite anything and can always score a W, despite that NOT being how the ability was ever presented in the manga. It had clear limits shown, and even if it was never defeated in the manga, and Yhwach simply won, that still wouldn't mean he could just snag an easy W from anyone with that ability.
He, just like anyone else with a seemingly 'broken' hax, can only be gone off of what it has SHOWN, not what the person THINKS it could hypothetically do, but has no proof of. Yhwach can solo his verse(He can't, but lets just say he can)? Great, his hax power is enough to overcome continental, potentially planet-level folks to get a win. Now, how would his ability fare for him against a galaxy buster? Someone who could one-shot or warp a universe to their heart's desire? Does he have any feats of getting over that with The Almighty? No? Then guess what, the best outcome his ability can afford him, is STILL gonna involve him getting steam-rolled, no matter your head-canon, because the showings just AREN'T there.
No character, no matter how busted their ability seems, and is within their setting, should have it treated like its something that could get them a W regardless of their opponent from another setting, where for all said fan knows, an ability that they preach to be 'OP' could be something more commonplace within the other character's setting, or that said character has dealt with something similar or more potent in showings.
I don't care how great someone's future sight is, for another example, or maybe time-based shenanigans either, if their opponent is so much faster than them that they get blitzed before the synapses in their brain even have the CHANCE to start firing off with a response, and they're dead before they even know what the fuck just happened.
People considering everything to be hyperbole. Like its good to keep an open mind about statements and lines cause there not always entirely true, but then there just ignoring whats being said.
For example the most used case for 'hyperbole' is a character being stated to move as fast as light. Now most of the time this can be the case, like Shalltear in Overlord being said to move at the speed of light being only a one-off statement that gets contradicted by feats after V3.
But then you stuff like Reid Astrea from Re:zero moving at lightspeed, where he isn't just said to move at light, he demonstrates it by cutting a Jiwald spell, which is a Yang(light) spell, said to be white light, and moves at the speed of light.
Meaning that it isn't a one-off statement without context. It is a statement with multiple supporting statements and a feat.
The same thing in black clover where light magic is explicitly stated to be lightspeed and you have Yami saying that he can move faster than light.
For example the most used case for 'hyperbole' is a character being stated to move as fast as light. Now most of the time this can be the case, like Shalltear in Overlord being said to move at the speed of light being only a one-off statement that gets contradicted by feats after V3.
But then you stuff like Reid Astrea from Re:zero moving at lightspeed, where he isn't just said to move at light, he demonstrates it by cutting a Jiwald spell, which is a Yang(light) spell, said to be white light, and moves at the speed of light.
Meaning that it isn't a one-off statement without context. It is a statement with multiple supporting statements and a feat.
The same thing in black clover where light magic is explicitly stated to be lightspeed and you have Yami saying that he can move faster than light.
Randomdude
Paramount
Eh to be more clear with this it's actually braine who had his attack mistranslated in the earlier translations of the novels as attacking at the speed of light with his martial arts. Shalltear caught said blade which is where I assume the idea shalltear is somehow related to it comes from.
The statement is even more patently ridiculous with context, even ignoring the blatant mistranslation brain is a level thirty character, he at best might be able to parry some bullets based on the death warrior. The idea someone of his level could do anything at "Light speed" is ludicrous. (Anyone in overlord moving at that speed in overlord would be ridiculous within the context of the novels but braine in particular is probably the worst possible character to make such a claim with)
I mean, something twice as fast as you irl wouldn't be entirely imperceptible, so the 20x probably is correct.
I don't remember why the math specifically results in that number but w/e
Going to add something to this,
in English using hyperbole uses like or similar before the phrase so people get that its hyperbole.
Idk if japanese language has something similar to those words though.
Popping into this thread to post something a lot of other forums tend to misunderstand (while being related to the previously mentioned hyperbole topic) is high-end feats =/= outliers.
When a series gets new feats it's bound to get ones that will eventually upgrade it. Sometimes it'll have only one or two feats of that level and everything else will simply scale to them. Superman being a planetbuster makes sense since he has dozens upon dozens of feats of him being at that level, so when he gets a feat that puts him even higher, it makes sense, since he's no stranger to cosmic feats. Superman having solar system to galaxy and even universal feats makes sense since not only are there multiple feats of those levels that he scales to, but they're not that far above each other. (yeah I know there are massive dc gaps between them all that's not the point of what I'm saying lol)
An outlier is something so far above the rest of the verse's feats that also never has anything even remotely close to it happen again. A recent example would be the black hole feat that occured in JJK, which while there is some debate on it even being a real black hole (though it was stated it would destroy the world), the real issue is simple: there's just no other feats on that level in the series. The series has always been sitting at MCB/town levels and then suddenly getting a possible planet level feat is a bit much. If another feat occurs which is on that level? Then we can start talking upgrades.
I bring this up because this is often used not just as a method of downplaying verses, with places like reddit viewing 90% of Hulk's feats as "consistent outliers"(????) and limiting him to being only city level. Or characters like Spider-Man being only wall/small building level and supersonic because his higher-end feats are "inconsistent". On the other hand you have people taking the opposite route and wanking series based on outliers, such as the aforementioned JJK black hole, or more infamously Mundus creating a universe in Devil May Cry (which, even if it wasn't retconned into being an illusion, and even if it was a real universe, would be so far above any other feat in the series that it falls under prime outlier material).
I even deal with this on my own time since I know people IRL who try to wank Overwatch of all verses with this, saying things like "lol double jump physics makes Genji city level" or "Zarya's black holes makes everyone planetary and FTL" despite the otherwise best feats in the verse putting them at building level and hypersonic
When a series gets new feats it's bound to get ones that will eventually upgrade it. Sometimes it'll have only one or two feats of that level and everything else will simply scale to them. Superman being a planetbuster makes sense since he has dozens upon dozens of feats of him being at that level, so when he gets a feat that puts him even higher, it makes sense, since he's no stranger to cosmic feats. Superman having solar system to galaxy and even universal feats makes sense since not only are there multiple feats of those levels that he scales to, but they're not that far above each other. (yeah I know there are massive dc gaps between them all that's not the point of what I'm saying lol)
An outlier is something so far above the rest of the verse's feats that also never has anything even remotely close to it happen again. A recent example would be the black hole feat that occured in JJK, which while there is some debate on it even being a real black hole (though it was stated it would destroy the world), the real issue is simple: there's just no other feats on that level in the series. The series has always been sitting at MCB/town levels and then suddenly getting a possible planet level feat is a bit much. If another feat occurs which is on that level? Then we can start talking upgrades.
I bring this up because this is often used not just as a method of downplaying verses, with places like reddit viewing 90% of Hulk's feats as "consistent outliers"(????) and limiting him to being only city level. Or characters like Spider-Man being only wall/small building level and supersonic because his higher-end feats are "inconsistent". On the other hand you have people taking the opposite route and wanking series based on outliers, such as the aforementioned JJK black hole, or more infamously Mundus creating a universe in Devil May Cry (which, even if it wasn't retconned into being an illusion, and even if it was a real universe, would be so far above any other feat in the series that it falls under prime outlier material).
I even deal with this on my own time since I know people IRL who try to wank Overwatch of all verses with this, saying things like "lol double jump physics makes Genji city level" or "Zarya's black holes makes everyone planetary and FTL" despite the otherwise best feats in the verse putting them at building level and hypersonic
Alright just thought of something thats been bothering me recently.
The use of a character being in a "higher dimension" and that somehow meaning they dont need feats of resistance for shit.
No, you still need those feats fucker. Existing in a higher plane doesnt suddenly mean that you can just resist any and all hax. Feats or at least some kinda statement is gonna be needed otherwise imma just assume your ass is grass
The use of a character being in a "higher dimension" and that somehow meaning they dont need feats of resistance for shit.
No, you still need those feats fucker. Existing in a higher plane doesnt suddenly mean that you can just resist any and all hax. Feats or at least some kinda statement is gonna be needed otherwise imma just assume your ass is grass
that’s pretty much one of many reasons we don’t solely go off dimensions here
even in series that use higher dimensions literally like transformers or marvel it’s inconsistent. Alternity being completely imperceptible to normal life but they can’t control time before their origin point and aren’t acausal, the Beyonders in marvel being able to gank the LT but for some insane reason they can’t time travel are both good examples of why not to take it at face value
even in series that use higher dimensions literally like transformers or marvel it’s inconsistent. Alternity being completely imperceptible to normal life but they can’t control time before their origin point and aren’t acausal, the Beyonders in marvel being able to gank the LT but for some insane reason they can’t time travel are both good examples of why not to take it at face value
No setting is ever consistent with that dimensions shit. Practically every series that's ever introduced it has contradicted it at some point or another, or in comics' case, where its most prevalent, many times.
I stand by what I've been saying for a long time now. Higher dimensions is, with very little exception, just a way for people to wank their favorite series to bastard heights, inconsistency or misunderstanding be damned.
there’s series I can think of that do play it fairly straight but even then they elaborate on why their cosmology works that way and don’t expect you to just take it at face value
No setting is ever consistent with that dimensions shit. Practically every series that's ever introduced it has contradicted it at some point or another, or in comics' case, where its most prevalent, many times.
I stand by what I've been saying for a long time now. Higher dimensions is, with very little exception, just a way for people to wank their favorite series to bastard heights, inconsistency or misunderstanding be damned.
The funny part about this is that it fits with a major common misconception... but it's with an explicit series and a vs. board that constantly uses it the wrong way.
But yes, Dimensions vary so much in fiction that it's basically impossible to try and put them on equal terms.
Vaguely defined invincibility not being treated as an NLF when it really should be.
Mainly thinking of Video-Game power-ups like the Star Power-Up in the Mario Games and Sonic's Super Forms.
Invincibility to anything in-universe should not equate to invincibility to power orders of magnitude higher than anything in the series you come from.
Even if Sonic had no time limit for Super Sonic I can think of plenty of characters who would not have to wait for his form to run out to be able to damage/kill/destroy him.
Mainly thinking of Video-Game power-ups like the Star Power-Up in the Mario Games and Sonic's Super Forms.
Invincibility to anything in-universe should not equate to invincibility to power orders of magnitude higher than anything in the series you come from.
Even if Sonic had no time limit for Super Sonic I can think of plenty of characters who would not have to wait for his form to run out to be able to damage/kill/destroy him.
Surprise I'm months late on this but I finally want to address another major part of the misconceptions and we primarily touched upon them:
Death of An Author & Word of God.
For those that don't know the actual meaning of the two, we will tackle them with their base definitions away from TvTropes:
And Word of God:
(This one is a little more difficult to do without TvTropes so instead of bringing up that overblown site, I'll just do a TL;DR)
Word of God is basically when an Author or someone similar on the highest chain(i.e. Director, Producer) states something happened, even if it contradicts the events we watched.
Now why is this something that's needed to be known in a VS. Debate? Because just like how Word of God can even contradict events that happened in the show, there's a prevailing overuse of Death of An Author to completely disregard an Author's words in their own work because "contradictions"(Let's ignore how the contradictions are usually baseless.
What do I mean by that? Let's use an example of Word of God that's primarily used in a really dumb way:
Ben-10's Alien X
We know it, we hate it and everyone consistently goes overboard over the creator's opinion on how far it goes... the problem? None of this is established in the story and more importantly, none of it actually fits with what we have ever seen of Alien X or it's species(i.e. They can literally die getting close to a literal Planet of Death).
Another example of this is J.K. Rowling and Straybow from Worm. Primarily they keep adding things well after the story is finished and most of it completely contradicts what we know in the lore and most of the time, it feels like it's there for the sake of being there. I don't really need to bring up examples, most people can see it through their Twitter or in Spacebattles for Straybow.
Does this mean that all WoG is useless? No, it just means that you can't take everything WoG says and immediately apply it to a VS. setting without any real genuine proof(i.e. It fits what is established in the series and it doesn't contradict itself) as this leads into issues with Death of An Author.
There are many, many examples of the use of Death of An Author and you don't even need to go far to see them:
Series like Gurren Lagann, Star Wars, The Nasuverse, The Elder Scrolls constantly gets their feats ignored not because of any real contradictions but straight up ignoring everything WoG states because "it doesn't make sense to me" even when it's outright told to you and demonstrated point blank.
The issue with the use of Death of An Author is primarily the fact that it cannot be used in it's typical format in a VS. setting as the entire point of VS. debates is to primarily argue feats that we have knowledge of from the series that aren't contradicted and the series treats as thus, no matter how "inconsistent" the feat is(as long as it's not a true "outlier", it should be allowed).
This, of course, leads with a conundrum:
Do we deny DoAA outright or WoG outright and the answer is... it's a case by case basis.
Many people can say it better than I can but if an Author is blatantly contradicting themselves or dead out includes nothing for the WoG(Like with Kinoko Nasu stating Excalibur killed Sefar, not Zeus in the Olympus Lostbelt... despite nothing in the story even brings it up), then it's thrown out in VS. discussion
On the other hand, If someone denies a feat based on DoAA, then there needs to be damn good evidence to do so or it will be equally thrown out.
Death of An Author & Word of God.
For those that don't know the actual meaning of the two, we will tackle them with their base definitions away from TvTropes:
The Death of The Author Analysis | Roland Barthes | Filmslie.com
The Death of The Author analysis and review. The essay "The Death of The Author" examines the author-text relationship and the collapse of meaning.
filmslie.com
And Word of God:
(This one is a little more difficult to do without TvTropes so instead of bringing up that overblown site, I'll just do a TL;DR)
Word of God is basically when an Author or someone similar on the highest chain(i.e. Director, Producer) states something happened, even if it contradicts the events we watched.
Now why is this something that's needed to be known in a VS. Debate? Because just like how Word of God can even contradict events that happened in the show, there's a prevailing overuse of Death of An Author to completely disregard an Author's words in their own work because "contradictions"(Let's ignore how the contradictions are usually baseless.
What do I mean by that? Let's use an example of Word of God that's primarily used in a really dumb way:
Ben-10's Alien X
We know it, we hate it and everyone consistently goes overboard over the creator's opinion on how far it goes... the problem? None of this is established in the story and more importantly, none of it actually fits with what we have ever seen of Alien X or it's species(i.e. They can literally die getting close to a literal Planet of Death).
Another example of this is J.K. Rowling and Straybow from Worm. Primarily they keep adding things well after the story is finished and most of it completely contradicts what we know in the lore and most of the time, it feels like it's there for the sake of being there. I don't really need to bring up examples, most people can see it through their Twitter or in Spacebattles for Straybow.
Does this mean that all WoG is useless? No, it just means that you can't take everything WoG says and immediately apply it to a VS. setting without any real genuine proof(i.e. It fits what is established in the series and it doesn't contradict itself) as this leads into issues with Death of An Author.
There are many, many examples of the use of Death of An Author and you don't even need to go far to see them:
Series like Gurren Lagann, Star Wars, The Nasuverse, The Elder Scrolls constantly gets their feats ignored not because of any real contradictions but straight up ignoring everything WoG states because "it doesn't make sense to me" even when it's outright told to you and demonstrated point blank.
The issue with the use of Death of An Author is primarily the fact that it cannot be used in it's typical format in a VS. setting as the entire point of VS. debates is to primarily argue feats that we have knowledge of from the series that aren't contradicted and the series treats as thus, no matter how "inconsistent" the feat is(as long as it's not a true "outlier", it should be allowed).
This, of course, leads with a conundrum:
Do we deny DoAA outright or WoG outright and the answer is... it's a case by case basis.
Many people can say it better than I can but if an Author is blatantly contradicting themselves or dead out includes nothing for the WoG(Like with Kinoko Nasu stating Excalibur killed Sefar, not Zeus in the Olympus Lostbelt... despite nothing in the story even brings it up), then it's thrown out in VS. discussion
On the other hand, If someone denies a feat based on DoAA, then there needs to be damn good evidence to do so or it will be equally thrown out.
did you mean to say Wildbow instead of Straybow?
got some Live a Live on your mind there I see
Straybow can go fuck himself like Wildbow can as well
Nah but no actual harm to the author, just joking around.