That's moot cause I was townreading her after his case
Let’s vote Psy then. I don’t think this is her scum game, but if the choices are hime or Psy, the answer is easy
nat your vote was on a townie for 4 days. this isnt a metric to someone being town or scum. what u have to look at are the reasonings behind the lynch. i take note that lethal's lynch was bad. himse's lynch was unfortunate cuz ppl locked votes
so i helped u town read a townie to make myself more lynchable? is that something ive ever done as scum?That's moot cause I was townreading her after his case
Okay, let us move on then, I want to see you thrive
I'm writing this up over the night phase - for context I ignored everyone in the thread except for Poyser, Fang and Richard. Because they're admins, I also couldn't ignore Ultra, which means he gets included in here a fair amount, but I'm mostly satisfied with my read on his slot from how Poyser interacted with him Day 1. Poyser gets very defensive over this line of questioning from Ultra - by default that leans to them being unaligned. There is more to consider here, though. This being one of them. As scum, Poyser early on was reluctant to commit to scum reading Magic, presumably out of reservation for Magic catching him. For this to be scum theatre. Ultra would have to be aware of this *on some level* (he'd know Magic is Town, and Poyser is scum), and then cast a huge spotlight onto how Poyser is handling Magic in a way that only really serves to be damaging. Basically, Ultra's point is that Poyser was treating Magic with a degree of TMI - this is seldom the kind of distancing you see from scum, who would be more eager to use results-based analysis to discredit their mates because being wrong doesn't mean you have to be scum. This is almost signing the death warrant for Poyser, on day 1. My initial thought here was that I don't know if Poyser is so keen to buddy up with a scum mate like this by just strongly reading him town - but his defence of this read comes down to meta that is honestly a lay-up to discredit. Poyser doesn't really evolve from the read, and while Fang did question the read, it came more from a place of wanting to correct Poyser on the semantics rather than feeling like he was being buddied up towards. So, my expectation here is that Poyser is going to want to talk about scum mates somewhere. Early game, these are the main slots he voices any real opinion of, beyond Ultra/Nat as scum. I haven't really got anything further to talk about with this specific list, except to say that between Fang/Nat/Ultra/Ekko we obviously have at least one scum, and my overall contention here is that it's Fang. Ultra just continues to dismantle Poyser's arguments. For them to be scum here, without being able to communicate they would have to set out to hard bus the other, in a setup where they number only 3 vs 13 townies. It doesn't seem very likely to me. Brought this up because this is in response to Ultra asking for Fang to elaborate on his scum reads of Poyser and Ekko. He doesn't do this - he deflects the question and claims that he satisfied the burden of evidence for his position already. Notably, he doesn't seem too interested in pushing his point of view or persuading anyone on it - given his later grandstanding, this is rather interesting. Just wanted to bring up this post - look at how much he talks about the Ekko Town read, he's very confident in his reasoning even though it doesn't really go anywhere. He obviously wants to give the impression that he has given it a lot of thought. Contrast it with Poyser, and... well there's nothing. My point here is that this strikes me as TMI - he knows Ekko is town, so is happy to regale his phoned-in meta read to justify his town read, but with Poyser, he has nothing - he simply ties the two together. Poyser sort of has the opposite issue - he has lots to say about why he town reads Fang, but as far as Ekko is concerned, the crux of his reasoning comes down to "he has focused on fewer players and is being annoying in a townie way". The point I'm making with these post sis that it's clear that Poyser/Fang treat their town reads differently for no real reason, in a way that could suggest they are connected. I don't want to claim this is a slam dunk because it's not, but it's important because we are trying to find scum from the spew of a player who will have been doing his best to hide it. This does run counter to my belief, sort of. It's pretty weak, but inviting suspicion is strange as scum, and I'd be disingenuous to pretend like posts like this do not exist. You will like who my top scum read is, then! This is a mark against Nat. Given that it ended up in a mislynch anyway, Poyser backing off from the wagon looks like cold feet. That being said, if Poyser/Nat were distancing, I wouldn't expect Poyser to just run away from it knowing how it will look. I have no defence for this, so don't bother asking. This does come across as buddying up to a town player. I actually had a scum read on Poyser while this was live and appreciated Ultra catching on to this too - Poyser essentially ties Ultra to Remchu because Ultra has a strong meta read on Rem, and it was obviously horseshit because it is just picking alignment based on results - not the process on how they were achieved. You can probably argue that, with Rem flipping town Poyser doesn't gain anything by tying a townie with a townie, but if this were scum, I sort of expect Ultra to just take the linkage and run with it anyway. Dismantling it, and Poyser's internal logic once again, only comes from Scum Ultra if they set on hard bussing from the off. Brought this up because Richard barely actually talks about his reads - he just links them based on results. This is how I would expect scum to distance from a scum mate - to include them in a PoE with a couple of townies and say one of them is scum. Brought this up because while Poyser does express he wants votes on Richard, he never really drives it, and contrast his demeanour here with how he was with Ultra at the start - it looks and sounds different. Namely, there is significantly less abrasion, and his questioning is more conducive to allowing Richard to embellish his reasoning that to actually attack his logic. This is more abrasive, but I don't feel like anything prevents it from being scum/scum, in context, he would have seen Richard try to link him with Ekko and would obviously need to address it - to either prop himself or Richard up later in the game. I'm aware that this isn't really a point, but my intention here is to cast a light on their interactions and to then explain why I think it could come from distancing. When the conversation seems to be getting out of hand, Richard switches tack, and Poyser never doubles down or follows up. *This* is a point, because the deflection from Richard here doesn't actually hold up at all, and serves only to cool off an interaction between him and Poyser. Poyser's response to this (none) is equally telling - if he's looking to mislynch Richard, he can easily bury him for this. This reads as ingenuine, in the same way he was regarding voting Ekko in Fallout New Vegas. I think Fang struggles with this element of Mafia - his apology reads as insincere and it feels like he's trying to placate Remchu. A truly awful vote, and one that doesn't actually make any sense. Why is he voting out of policy here? These posts come within the same page, I don't think Poyser ever adequately pushes Richard to justify this level of suspicion. In this page alone he goes from aksing for Richard votes to saying "um well, maybe don't". These reads make little to no sense. He doesn't bother reasoning them, either - nor does he explain why he suddenly has Poyser a s atown read. This doesn't feel very genuine, either. Why does he even think he's a wagon given the majority of the discussion end of day was around Ekko/Rem? It's funny given how much Fang postures later that he was "town coring" Scum when the two people he discredits both pushed said scum. This makes 0 sense - how does Richard being town make magic super trustworthy even? Given how Poyser played around Magic, I can reconcile this as tying to a scum buddy... but I'll let you make your own conclusions. Here he ties Tweet to Scum!Richard. This is utter hogwash, and while I think I've already established this point - is not the kind of angle scum attack each other with. It only serves to make one party look horrible. Quoted this because he piped up basically within a minute of Ultra beginning to properly discuss him - struck me as lurking. Also reads as ingenuine. I struggle to reconcile Poyser seeing his scum mate claim usage, claims to scum lock them, and then walk it back later on like this. It points to Ekko/Poyser not being aligned. This, honestly, looks good for Fang. This, however, is nonsense. Ultra posted a case on RDK at the start of the day. At this point, I think this is notably defensive of Fang - given that for it to hold up, it requires ignoring context from Fang's most recent scum game here. I think this looks good for Nat - Nat claimed early on, so I assume they'd have to discuss the claim, to post like this around her would essentially amount to them agreeing for Poyser to bus Nat, the same Nat who clears Magic of all players. Yeah, I can't defend this either. I have no idea why he claims so easily, and the claim actually doesn't really make sense. If we take all the claims at face value, we have a watcher, an alignment cop with a restriction, a limited role cop, a busdriver and a voyeur. The voyeur is the only one that's delayed, and we know we get special roles if recruits happen in addition to this. I don't really want to speculate heavily on the setup, but if we accept that at least one of the claims is fake, Richard's circumstances around claiming is the most suspect. This reads as buddying up to Ekko, though part of me thinks it looks good for Richard too. Noting because Aurelian later uses Ekko wanting the IC lynched to discredit Ekko, here he uses it as an example of something intrinsic to his town game. His suspicion doesn't make much sense. Why would he claim here? both Fang and Richard are happy to play fast a loose with claims after day chat was a thing - there is nothing over the course of the day to explain why they feel the need to claim. Positionally looks bad. I don't feel like any of this tracks logically. Why does he need Poyser to defend her? Why does he think he or Hime will die? This folds back in to another observation of Fang's wider play I have - he *loves* tying himself to another player when defending his arguments. Make of this what you will. While I can appreciate a fellow Channer, the meme arrows don't actually work here. Notice bringing up Hime, unprompted? Her saying she has a power role doesn't actually discredit the accusation that Ultra has, quoted above. Here he brings up Lethal - without anything really linking him doing so congruently. I'll be able to establish this better later. This isn't even remotely true. This does harm my Richard/Fang solve, because I don't think scum would just forget about it. Well, it could be a freudian slip I suppose. I believe the "in" term now is "a pick-me girl". The problem I have here is you've made no attempt to analyse his interactions with Poyser - zero. "I want to read him town, but this one element I can argue undoes it all for me!" - nonsense. I question if this void even needs filling, though. Ingenuine, and also what the hell is this? Why would he randomly vote Ekko when he wants to get something cleared up and otherwise had him as solid town? Comes across as posturing. I probably wouldn't have lynched Hime yesterday, but I do think she espoused some absolute dreck at times. This is.. fair, but Ultra, you're essentially just taking one element of her play and allowing that to change your read based on it being the most recent thing about her. I'm aware you went back through and checked her interactions but if I have any reservations about your play from last day phase, it's how you talked into a Hime lynch based on where you were beforehand. This doesn't really help, either - especially when you never explicitly state here why it's bad (I can see why, but compromise is needed sometimes). Awful post - he's essentially running damage control (and he also says later that he'll lynch Ekko regardless of what Psychic flips). You have yet to establish that the shield talk is conducive to catching scum. Ties himself with Nat (remember what I said earlier, he does it *a lot* day 4). Ties himself with Nat again. This is one of your worst posts in the game - inviting opening up your solve when your read is proven correct? How does that even work? Interesting that he brings up fang here and does... nothing with it. Poisoning the Well. Ties himself to Nat/Hime. The problem is you're claiming that the wagons are between two people, and then trying to cite maths as evidence for this, in spite of the maths actually putting your preferred lynch in the minority. Ties himself to Nat again. He doesn't seem willing to defend anything without also bringing up another player to compare himself with. If you don't know what is suspicious about that, it's that it's a form of buddying. Shep was explicitly answering a hypothetical - you using that answer to include him in your PoE (which shouldn't even work from your stated positions) is a poor response. Poisoning the Well. What even is this post? Buddying. You didn't mechanically clear Hime at all, though.
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I do have some reservations. Magic Town reading Richard, for one. The problem is - I think Ekko, Ultra and Nat are all Town. I can see a world where Ekko and Ultra are scum together, but it's not really worth consideration when contrasted with the evidence against it. There is a small chance nat is scum, but it requires her interaction with Poyser to be some 6D chess. There is Shepard, who I don't really have a strong impression of, given that this re-read has been with most players ignored and I've skipped about half of day 1, but seems to be consensus town and frankly isn't pushing anything for better or worse. What drives my read though is the certainty that Magic had on him being Town - he was killed for a reason and I don't think he'd be so confident without having a very good grasp of Shep's play. I see 0 reason to contemplate his slot here. This isn't blind sheeping - dead Town should be listened to, and Magic had town reads on Lethal and Hime from where I'm up to in his ISO, which would be 2 mislynches avoided. That leaves Fang, Richard, Goth. Goth can be anything, though I do think as town he tends to have some posts that look like thoughts, which can be found here sparingly.
To summarise, my issue with Fang's play is that several takes appear ingenuine, he makes a point to tie himself to other players, and most of his arguing comes down to not really addressing the point and hoping his interlocutor runs out of patience. My issue with Richard is that he fits the profile of coasting scum to a t - his reasoning is mostly flawed, his claim and target makes little sense and several posts have struck me as ingenuine. While none of this is a sure thing for either, with the other slots having more reason to town read them this is the solve I'm left with.
Richard
Aurelian
Goth
Nat
Ekko
Ultra
Shepard
That's ordered most scum to least. It's a little annoying because in my head I can word this better but I'm pretty fatigued at the moment so I've cut corners in regards to establishing my points. If you need me to expand on anything specifically please let me know.
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I'm going through Magic's ISO, Magic I'm trying to honour your reads but where I am currently you have Shep, Ekko, Nat, Richard all Town and I can't get that to work with what is left (Ultra/Fang/Goth). Will keep going but I'm still inclined to dismiss the Richard read for reasons I've outlined above. Okay, finished the ISO. I can bump Fang to top scum off of it, even though Magic had town reads on both. Ultimately my top 3 doesn't change. I think I've done my due diligence in respecting dead town Magic's reads there - I am almost entirely leaving reading Shep up to him (though I am ignoring his takes on Richard/Poyser never being scum together).
Next is CP. I'm ignoring where he was wrong or astray, such as his early comments around Magic.
#578 CP agrees with Ultra on Poyser Scum.
#608 Likes a Fang post
#625 Scum on Ekko, Town on Poyser
#634 Scum on Richard (!)
#636 Explains that he believes Richard basically has nothing of substance to say
#661 Questions Nat
#692, #700 Questions Richard
#731 Expresses that he thinks he might be giving Richard a pass (can't see any response to this post either, a pity)
#1336 Wants to vote Richard
#1339 Again, wants to vote Richard, Shield Poyser
#1354 Confirms the above
#1488 CP *really* wants Richard dead
And that's basically the end of anything interesting in the ISO. I think my conclusion is obvious - if there is any legacy to honour on the dead N1 townie here it's Richard, who CP wanted to murder badly. I obviously don't need prompting because this is music to my ears but I'm a bit surprised no one has covered this stuff already. Those are the only two townies that were killed by scum at the time of writing this. If I use their takes to compass my own, I'm left with:
Town - Shep Nat Ekko Ultra
Null - Goth
Scum - Richard Fang
In other words it hasn't really changed at all - I feel a bit more confident on Nat being town and in Fang being scum, wavering a little on Ultra town but still happy to have him there. I am a tad less confident on Richard but I can only really come to it being goth if not those two anyway.
That's where I'm at - AMA.
Nap time (I was not intending on having to do this on 3 hours sleep).
Can you see Usopp - Richard?I'm writing this up over the night phase - for context I ignored everyone in the thread except for Poyser, Fang and Richard. Because they're admins, I also couldn't ignore Ultra, which means he gets included in here a fair amount, but I'm mostly satisfied with my read on his slot from how Poyser interacted with him Day 1. Poyser gets very defensive over this line of questioning from Ultra - by default that leans to them being unaligned. There is more to consider here, though. This being one of them. As scum, Poyser early on was reluctant to commit to scum reading Magic, presumably out of reservation for Magic catching him. For this to be scum theatre. Ultra would have to be aware of this *on some level* (he'd know Magic is Town, and Poyser is scum), and then cast a huge spotlight onto how Poyser is handling Magic in a way that only really serves to be damaging. Basically, Ultra's point is that Poyser was treating Magic with a degree of TMI - this is seldom the kind of distancing you see from scum, who would be more eager to use results-based analysis to discredit their mates because being wrong doesn't mean you have to be scum. This is almost signing the death warrant for Poyser, on day 1. My initial thought here was that I don't know if Poyser is so keen to buddy up with a scum mate like this by just strongly reading him town - but his defence of this read comes down to meta that is honestly a lay-up to discredit. Poyser doesn't really evolve from the read, and while Fang did question the read, it came more from a place of wanting to correct Poyser on the semantics rather than feeling like he was being buddied up towards. So, my expectation here is that Poyser is going to want to talk about scum mates somewhere. Early game, these are the main slots he voices any real opinion of, beyond Ultra/Nat as scum. I haven't really got anything further to talk about with this specific list, except to say that between Fang/Nat/Ultra/Ekko we obviously have at least one scum, and my overall contention here is that it's Fang. Ultra just continues to dismantle Poyser's arguments. For them to be scum here, without being able to communicate they would have to set out to hard bus the other, in a setup where they number only 3 vs 13 townies. It doesn't seem very likely to me. Brought this up because this is in response to Ultra asking for Fang to elaborate on his scum reads of Poyser and Ekko. He doesn't do this - he deflects the question and claims that he satisfied the burden of evidence for his position already. Notably, he doesn't seem too interested in pushing his point of view or persuading anyone on it - given his later grandstanding, this is rather interesting. Just wanted to bring up this post - look at how much he talks about the Ekko Town read, he's very confident in his reasoning even though it doesn't really go anywhere. He obviously wants to give the impression that he has given it a lot of thought. Contrast it with Poyser, and... well there's nothing. My point here is that this strikes me as TMI - he knows Ekko is town, so is happy to regale his phoned-in meta read to justify his town read, but with Poyser, he has nothing - he simply ties the two together. Poyser sort of has the opposite issue - he has lots to say about why he town reads Fang, but as far as Ekko is concerned, the crux of his reasoning comes down to "he has focused on fewer players and is being annoying in a townie way". The point I'm making with these post sis that it's clear that Poyser/Fang treat their town reads differently for no real reason, in a way that could suggest they are connected. I don't want to claim this is a slam dunk because it's not, but it's important because we are trying to find scum from the spew of a player who will have been doing his best to hide it. This does run counter to my belief, sort of. It's pretty weak, but inviting suspicion is strange as scum, and I'd be disingenuous to pretend like posts like this do not exist. You will like who my top scum read is, then! This is a mark against Nat. Given that it ended up in a mislynch anyway, Poyser backing off from the wagon looks like cold feet. That being said, if Poyser/Nat were distancing, I wouldn't expect Poyser to just run away from it knowing how it will look. I have no defence for this, so don't bother asking. This does come across as buddying up to a town player. I actually had a scum read on Poyser while this was live and appreciated Ultra catching on to this too - Poyser essentially ties Ultra to Remchu because Ultra has a strong meta read on Rem, and it was obviously horseshit because it is just picking alignment based on results - not the process on how they were achieved. You can probably argue that, with Rem flipping town Poyser doesn't gain anything by tying a townie with a townie, but if this were scum, I sort of expect Ultra to just take the linkage and run with it anyway. Dismantling it, and Poyser's internal logic once again, only comes from Scum Ultra if they set on hard bussing from the off. Brought this up because Richard barely actually talks about his reads - he just links them based on results. This is how I would expect scum to distance from a scum mate - to include them in a PoE with a couple of townies and say one of them is scum. Brought this up because while Poyser does express he wants votes on Richard, he never really drives it, and contrast his demeanour here with how he was with Ultra at the start - it looks and sounds different. Namely, there is significantly less abrasion, and his questioning is more conducive to allowing Richard to embellish his reasoning that to actually attack his logic. This is more abrasive, but I don't feel like anything prevents it from being scum/scum, in context, he would have seen Richard try to link him with Ekko and would obviously need to address it - to either prop himself or Richard up later in the game. I'm aware that this isn't really a point, but my intention here is to cast a light on their interactions and to then explain why I think it could come from distancing. When the conversation seems to be getting out of hand, Richard switches tack, and Poyser never doubles down or follows up. *This* is a point, because the deflection from Richard here doesn't actually hold up at all, and serves only to cool off an interaction between him and Poyser. Poyser's response to this (none) is equally telling - if he's looking to mislynch Richard, he can easily bury him for this. This reads as ingenuine, in the same way he was regarding voting Ekko in Fallout New Vegas. I think Fang struggles with this element of Mafia - his apology reads as insincere and it feels like he's trying to placate Remchu. A truly awful vote, and one that doesn't actually make any sense. Why is he voting out of policy here? These posts come within the same page, I don't think Poyser ever adequately pushes Richard to justify this level of suspicion. In this page alone he goes from aksing for Richard votes to saying "um well, maybe don't". These reads make little to no sense. He doesn't bother reasoning them, either - nor does he explain why he suddenly has Poyser a s atown read. This doesn't feel very genuine, either. Why does he even think he's a wagon given the majority of the discussion end of day was around Ekko/Rem? It's funny given how much Fang postures later that he was "town coring" Scum when the two people he discredits both pushed said scum. This makes 0 sense - how does Richard being town make magic super trustworthy even? Given how Poyser played around Magic, I can reconcile this as tying to a scum buddy... but I'll let you make your own conclusions. Here he ties Tweet to Scum!Richard. This is utter hogwash, and while I think I've already established this point - is not the kind of angle scum attack each other with. It only serves to make one party look horrible. Quoted this because he piped up basically within a minute of Ultra beginning to properly discuss him - struck me as lurking. Also reads as ingenuine. I struggle to reconcile Poyser seeing his scum mate claim usage, claims to scum lock them, and then walk it back later on like this. It points to Ekko/Poyser not being aligned. This, honestly, looks good for Fang. This, however, is nonsense. Ultra posted a case on RDK at the start of the day. At this point, I think this is notably defensive of Fang - given that for it to hold up, it requires ignoring context from Fang's most recent scum game here. I think this looks good for Nat - Nat claimed early on, so I assume they'd have to discuss the claim, to post like this around her would essentially amount to them agreeing for Poyser to bus Nat, the same Nat who clears Magic of all players. Yeah, I can't defend this either. I have no idea why he claims so easily, and the claim actually doesn't really make sense. If we take all the claims at face value, we have a watcher, an alignment cop with a restriction, a limited role cop, a busdriver and a voyeur. The voyeur is the only one that's delayed, and we know we get special roles if recruits happen in addition to this. I don't really want to speculate heavily on the setup, but if we accept that at least one of the claims is fake, Richard's circumstances around claiming is the most suspect. This reads as buddying up to Ekko, though part of me thinks it looks good for Richard too. Noting because Aurelian later uses Ekko wanting the IC lynched to discredit Ekko, here he uses it as an example of something intrinsic to his town game. His suspicion doesn't make much sense. Why would he claim here? both Fang and Richard are happy to play fast a loose with claims after day chat was a thing - there is nothing over the course of the day to explain why they feel the need to claim. Positionally looks bad. I don't feel like any of this tracks logically. Why does he need Poyser to defend her? Why does he think he or Hime will die? This folds back in to another observation of Fang's wider play I have - he *loves* tying himself to another player when defending his arguments. Make of this what you will. While I can appreciate a fellow Channer, the meme arrows don't actually work here. Notice bringing up Hime, unprompted? Her saying she has a power role doesn't actually discredit the accusation that Ultra has, quoted above. Here he brings up Lethal - without anything really linking him doing so congruently. I'll be able to establish this better later. This isn't even remotely true. This does harm my Richard/Fang solve, because I don't think scum would just forget about it. Well, it could be a freudian slip I suppose. I believe the "in" term now is "a pick-me girl". The problem I have here is you've made no attempt to analyse his interactions with Poyser - zero. "I want to read him town, but this one element I can argue undoes it all for me!" - nonsense. I question if this void even needs filling, though. Ingenuine, and also what the hell is this? Why would he randomly vote Ekko when he wants to get something cleared up and otherwise had him as solid town? Comes across as posturing. I probably wouldn't have lynched Hime yesterday, but I do think she espoused some absolute dreck at times. This is.. fair, but Ultra, you're essentially just taking one element of her play and allowing that to change your read based on it being the most recent thing about her. I'm aware you went back through and checked her interactions but if I have any reservations about your play from last day phase, it's how you talked into a Hime lynch based on where you were beforehand. This doesn't really help, either - especially when you never explicitly state here why it's bad (I can see why, but compromise is needed sometimes). Awful post - he's essentially running damage control (and he also says later that he'll lynch Ekko regardless of what Psychic flips). You have yet to establish that the shield talk is conducive to catching scum. Ties himself with Nat (remember what I said earlier, he does it *a lot* day 4). Ties himself with Nat again. This is one of your worst posts in the game - inviting opening up your solve when your read is proven correct? How does that even work? Interesting that he brings up fang here and does... nothing with it. Poisoning the Well. Ties himself to Nat/Hime. The problem is you're claiming that the wagons are between two people, and then trying to cite maths as evidence for this, in spite of the maths actually putting your preferred lynch in the minority. Ties himself to Nat again. He doesn't seem willing to defend anything without also bringing up another player to compare himself with. If you don't know what is suspicious about that, it's that it's a form of buddying. Shep was explicitly answering a hypothetical - you using that answer to include him in your PoE (which shouldn't even work from your stated positions) is a poor response. Poisoning the Well. What even is this post? Buddying. You didn't mechanically clear Hime at all, though.
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I do have some reservations. Magic Town reading Richard, for one. The problem is - I think Ekko, Ultra and Nat are all Town. I can see a world where Ekko and Ultra are scum together, but it's not really worth consideration when contrasted with the evidence against it. There is a small chance nat is scum, but it requires her interaction with Poyser to be some 6D chess. There is Shepard, who I don't really have a strong impression of, given that this re-read has been with most players ignored and I've skipped about half of day 1, but seems to be consensus town and frankly isn't pushing anything for better or worse. What drives my read though is the certainty that Magic had on him being Town - he was killed for a reason and I don't think he'd be so confident without having a very good grasp of Shep's play. I see 0 reason to contemplate his slot here. This isn't blind sheeping - dead Town should be listened to, and Magic had town reads on Lethal and Hime from where I'm up to in his ISO, which would be 2 mislynches avoided. That leaves Fang, Richard, Goth. Goth can be anything, though I do think as town he tends to have some posts that look like thoughts, which can be found here sparingly.
To summarise, my issue with Fang's play is that several takes appear ingenuine, he makes a point to tie himself to other players, and most of his arguing comes down to not really addressing the point and hoping his interlocutor runs out of patience. My issue with Richard is that he fits the profile of coasting scum to a t - his reasoning is mostly flawed, his claim and target makes little sense and several posts have struck me as ingenuine. While none of this is a sure thing for either, with the other slots having more reason to town read them this is the solve I'm left with.
Richard
Aurelian
Goth
Nat
Ekko
Ultra
Shepard
That's ordered most scum to least. It's a little annoying because in my head I can word this better but I'm pretty fatigued at the moment so I've cut corners in regards to establishing my points. If you need me to expand on anything specifically please let me know.
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I'm going through Magic's ISO, Magic I'm trying to honour your reads but where I am currently you have Shep, Ekko, Nat, Richard all Town and I can't get that to work with what is left (Ultra/Fang/Goth). Will keep going but I'm still inclined to dismiss the Richard read for reasons I've outlined above. Okay, finished the ISO. I can bump Fang to top scum off of it, even though Magic had town reads on both. Ultimately my top 3 doesn't change. I think I've done my due diligence in respecting dead town Magic's reads there - I am almost entirely leaving reading Shep up to him (though I am ignoring his takes on Richard/Poyser never being scum together).
Next is CP. I'm ignoring where he was wrong or astray, such as his early comments around Magic.
#578 CP agrees with Ultra on Poyser Scum.
#608 Likes a Fang post
#625 Scum on Ekko, Town on Poyser
#634 Scum on Richard (!)
#636 Explains that he believes Richard basically has nothing of substance to say
#661 Questions Nat
#692, #700 Questions Richard
#731 Expresses that he thinks he might be giving Richard a pass (can't see any response to this post either, a pity)
#1336 Wants to vote Richard
#1339 Again, wants to vote Richard, Shield Poyser
#1354 Confirms the above
#1488 CP *really* wants Richard dead
And that's basically the end of anything interesting in the ISO. I think my conclusion is obvious - if there is any legacy to honour on the dead N1 townie here it's Richard, who CP wanted to murder badly. I obviously don't need prompting because this is music to my ears but I'm a bit surprised no one has covered this stuff already. Those are the only two townies that were killed by scum at the time of writing this. If I use their takes to compass my own, I'm left with:
Town - Shep Nat Ekko Ultra
Null - Goth
Scum - Richard Fang
In other words it hasn't really changed at all - I feel a bit more confident on Nat being town and in Fang being scum, wavering a little on Ultra town but still happy to have him there. I am a tad less confident on Richard but I can only really come to it being goth if not those two anyway.
That's where I'm at - AMA.
Nap time (I was not intending on having to do this on 3 hours sleep).
Kekko, I don't need to read interactions to know that when a guy claims a result on a player, then they're just never a team because one scum flip from Tweet would out both. Jfc are you acting dumb.
I'm writing this up over the night phase - for context I ignored everyone in the thread except for Poyser, Fang and Richard. Because they're admins, I also couldn't ignore Ultra, which means he gets included in here a fair amount, but I'm mostly satisfied with my read on his slot from how Poyser interacted with him Day 1. Poyser gets very defensive over this line of questioning from Ultra - by default that leans to them being unaligned. There is more to consider here, though. This being one of them. As scum, Poyser early on was reluctant to commit to scum reading Magic, presumably out of reservation for Magic catching him. For this to be scum theatre. Ultra would have to be aware of this *on some level* (he'd know Magic is Town, and Poyser is scum), and then cast a huge spotlight onto how Poyser is handling Magic in a way that only really serves to be damaging. Basically, Ultra's point is that Poyser was treating Magic with a degree of TMI - this is seldom the kind of distancing you see from scum, who would be more eager to use results-based analysis to discredit their mates because being wrong doesn't mean you have to be scum. This is almost signing the death warrant for Poyser, on day 1. My initial thought here was that I don't know if Poyser is so keen to buddy up with a scum mate like this by just strongly reading him town - but his defence of this read comes down to meta that is honestly a lay-up to discredit. Poyser doesn't really evolve from the read, and while Fang did question the read, it came more from a place of wanting to correct Poyser on the semantics rather than feeling like he was being buddied up towards. So, my expectation here is that Poyser is going to want to talk about scum mates somewhere. Early game, these are the main slots he voices any real opinion of, beyond Ultra/Nat as scum. I haven't really got anything further to talk about with this specific list, except to say that between Fang/Nat/Ultra/Ekko we obviously have at least one scum, and my overall contention here is that it's Fang. Ultra just continues to dismantle Poyser's arguments. For them to be scum here, without being able to communicate they would have to set out to hard bus the other, in a setup where they number only 3 vs 13 townies. It doesn't seem very likely to me. Brought this up because this is in response to Ultra asking for Fang to elaborate on his scum reads of Poyser and Ekko. He doesn't do this - he deflects the question and claims that he satisfied the burden of evidence for his position already. Notably, he doesn't seem too interested in pushing his point of view or persuading anyone on it - given his later grandstanding, this is rather interesting. Just wanted to bring up this post - look at how much he talks about the Ekko Town read, he's very confident in his reasoning even though it doesn't really go anywhere. He obviously wants to give the impression that he has given it a lot of thought. Contrast it with Poyser, and... well there's nothing. My point here is that this strikes me as TMI - he knows Ekko is town, so is happy to regale his phoned-in meta read to justify his town read, but with Poyser, he has nothing - he simply ties the two together. Poyser sort of has the opposite issue - he has lots to say about why he town reads Fang, but as far as Ekko is concerned, the crux of his reasoning comes down to "he has focused on fewer players and is being annoying in a townie way". The point I'm making with these post sis that it's clear that Poyser/Fang treat their town reads differently for no real reason, in a way that could suggest they are connected. I don't want to claim this is a slam dunk because it's not, but it's important because we are trying to find scum from the spew of a player who will have been doing his best to hide it. This does run counter to my belief, sort of. It's pretty weak, but inviting suspicion is strange as scum, and I'd be disingenuous to pretend like posts like this do not exist. You will like who my top scum read is, then! This is a mark against Nat. Given that it ended up in a mislynch anyway, Poyser backing off from the wagon looks like cold feet. That being said, if Poyser/Nat were distancing, I wouldn't expect Poyser to just run away from it knowing how it will look. I have no defence for this, so don't bother asking. This does come across as buddying up to a town player. I actually had a scum read on Poyser while this was live and appreciated Ultra catching on to this too - Poyser essentially ties Ultra to Remchu because Ultra has a strong meta read on Rem, and it was obviously horseshit because it is just picking alignment based on results - not the process on how they were achieved. You can probably argue that, with Rem flipping town Poyser doesn't gain anything by tying a townie with a townie, but if this were scum, I sort of expect Ultra to just take the linkage and run with it anyway. Dismantling it, and Poyser's internal logic once again, only comes from Scum Ultra if they set on hard bussing from the off. Brought this up because Richard barely actually talks about his reads - he just links them based on results. This is how I would expect scum to distance from a scum mate - to include them in a PoE with a couple of townies and say one of them is scum. Brought this up because while Poyser does express he wants votes on Richard, he never really drives it, and contrast his demeanour here with how he was with Ultra at the start - it looks and sounds different. Namely, there is significantly less abrasion, and his questioning is more conducive to allowing Richard to embellish his reasoning that to actually attack his logic. This is more abrasive, but I don't feel like anything prevents it from being scum/scum, in context, he would have seen Richard try to link him with Ekko and would obviously need to address it - to either prop himself or Richard up later in the game. I'm aware that this isn't really a point, but my intention here is to cast a light on their interactions and to then explain why I think it could come from distancing. When the conversation seems to be getting out of hand, Richard switches tack, and Poyser never doubles down or follows up. *This* is a point, because the deflection from Richard here doesn't actually hold up at all, and serves only to cool off an interaction between him and Poyser. Poyser's response to this (none) is equally telling - if he's looking to mislynch Richard, he can easily bury him for this. This reads as ingenuine, in the same way he was regarding voting Ekko in Fallout New Vegas. I think Fang struggles with this element of Mafia - his apology reads as insincere and it feels like he's trying to placate Remchu. A truly awful vote, and one that doesn't actually make any sense. Why is he voting out of policy here? These posts come within the same page, I don't think Poyser ever adequately pushes Richard to justify this level of suspicion. In this page alone he goes from aksing for Richard votes to saying "um well, maybe don't". These reads make little to no sense. He doesn't bother reasoning them, either - nor does he explain why he suddenly has Poyser a s atown read. This doesn't feel very genuine, either. Why does he even think he's a wagon given the majority of the discussion end of day was around Ekko/Rem? It's funny given how much Fang postures later that he was "town coring" Scum when the two people he discredits both pushed said scum. This makes 0 sense - how does Richard being town make magic super trustworthy even? Given how Poyser played around Magic, I can reconcile this as tying to a scum buddy... but I'll let you make your own conclusions. Here he ties Tweet to Scum!Richard. This is utter hogwash, and while I think I've already established this point - is not the kind of angle scum attack each other with. It only serves to make one party look horrible. Quoted this because he piped up basically within a minute of Ultra beginning to properly discuss him - struck me as lurking. Also reads as ingenuine. I struggle to reconcile Poyser seeing his scum mate claim usage, claims to scum lock them, and then walk it back later on like this. It points to Ekko/Poyser not being aligned. This, honestly, looks good for Fang. This, however, is nonsense. Ultra posted a case on RDK at the start of the day. At this point, I think this is notably defensive of Fang - given that for it to hold up, it requires ignoring context from Fang's most recent scum game here. I think this looks good for Nat - Nat claimed early on, so I assume they'd have to discuss the claim, to post like this around her would essentially amount to them agreeing for Poyser to bus Nat, the same Nat who clears Magic of all players. Yeah, I can't defend this either. I have no idea why he claims so easily, and the claim actually doesn't really make sense. If we take all the claims at face value, we have a watcher, an alignment cop with a restriction, a limited role cop, a busdriver and a voyeur. The voyeur is the only one that's delayed, and we know we get special roles if recruits happen in addition to this. I don't really want to speculate heavily on the setup, but if we accept that at least one of the claims is fake, Richard's circumstances around claiming is the most suspect. This reads as buddying up to Ekko, though part of me thinks it looks good for Richard too. Noting because Aurelian later uses Ekko wanting the IC lynched to discredit Ekko, here he uses it as an example of something intrinsic to his town game. His suspicion doesn't make much sense. Why would he claim here? both Fang and Richard are happy to play fast a loose with claims after day chat was a thing - there is nothing over the course of the day to explain why they feel the need to claim. Positionally looks bad. I don't feel like any of this tracks logically. Why does he need Poyser to defend her? Why does he think he or Hime will die? This folds back in to another observation of Fang's wider play I have - he *loves* tying himself to another player when defending his arguments. Make of this what you will. While I can appreciate a fellow Channer, the meme arrows don't actually work here. Notice bringing up Hime, unprompted? Her saying she has a power role doesn't actually discredit the accusation that Ultra has, quoted above. Here he brings up Lethal - without anything really linking him doing so congruently. I'll be able to establish this better later. This isn't even remotely true. This does harm my Richard/Fang solve, because I don't think scum would just forget about it. Well, it could be a freudian slip I suppose. I believe the "in" term now is "a pick-me girl". The problem I have here is you've made no attempt to analyse his interactions with Poyser - zero. "I want to read him town, but this one element I can argue undoes it all for me!" - nonsense. I question if this void even needs filling, though. Ingenuine, and also what the hell is this? Why would he randomly vote Ekko when he wants to get something cleared up and otherwise had him as solid town? Comes across as posturing. I probably wouldn't have lynched Hime yesterday, but I do think she espoused some absolute dreck at times. This is.. fair, but Ultra, you're essentially just taking one element of her play and allowing that to change your read based on it being the most recent thing about her. I'm aware you went back through and checked her interactions but if I have any reservations about your play from last day phase, it's how you talked into a Hime lynch based on where you were beforehand. This doesn't really help, either - especially when you never explicitly state here why it's bad (I can see why, but compromise is needed sometimes). Awful post - he's essentially running damage control (and he also says later that he'll lynch Ekko regardless of what Psychic flips). You have yet to establish that the shield talk is conducive to catching scum. Ties himself with Nat (remember what I said earlier, he does it *a lot* day 4). Ties himself with Nat again. This is one of your worst posts in the game - inviting opening up your solve when your read is proven correct? How does that even work? Interesting that he brings up fang here and does... nothing with it. Poisoning the Well. Ties himself to Nat/Hime. The problem is you're claiming that the wagons are between two people, and then trying to cite maths as evidence for this, in spite of the maths actually putting your preferred lynch in the minority. Ties himself to Nat again. He doesn't seem willing to defend anything without also bringing up another player to compare himself with. If you don't know what is suspicious about that, it's that it's a form of buddying. Shep was explicitly answering a hypothetical - you using that answer to include him in your PoE (which shouldn't even work from your stated positions) is a poor response. Poisoning the Well. What even is this post? Buddying. You didn't mechanically clear Hime at all, though.
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I do have some reservations. Magic Town reading Richard, for one. The problem is - I think Ekko, Ultra and Nat are all Town. I can see a world where Ekko and Ultra are scum together, but it's not really worth consideration when contrasted with the evidence against it. There is a small chance nat is scum, but it requires her interaction with Poyser to be some 6D chess. There is Shepard, who I don't really have a strong impression of, given that this re-read has been with most players ignored and I've skipped about half of day 1, but seems to be consensus town and frankly isn't pushing anything for better or worse. What drives my read though is the certainty that Magic had on him being Town - he was killed for a reason and I don't think he'd be so confident without having a very good grasp of Shep's play. I see 0 reason to contemplate his slot here. This isn't blind sheeping - dead Town should be listened to, and Magic had town reads on Lethal and Hime from where I'm up to in his ISO, which would be 2 mislynches avoided. That leaves Fang, Richard, Goth. Goth can be anything, though I do think as town he tends to have some posts that look like thoughts, which can be found here sparingly.
To summarise, my issue with Fang's play is that several takes appear ingenuine, he makes a point to tie himself to other players, and most of his arguing comes down to not really addressing the point and hoping his interlocutor runs out of patience. My issue with Richard is that he fits the profile of coasting scum to a t - his reasoning is mostly flawed, his claim and target makes little sense and several posts have struck me as ingenuine. While none of this is a sure thing for either, with the other slots having more reason to town read them this is the solve I'm left with.
Richard
Aurelian
Goth
Nat
Ekko
Ultra
Shepard
That's ordered most scum to least. It's a little annoying because in my head I can word this better but I'm pretty fatigued at the moment so I've cut corners in regards to establishing my points. If you need me to expand on anything specifically please let me know.
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I'm going through Magic's ISO, Magic I'm trying to honour your reads but where I am currently you have Shep, Ekko, Nat, Richard all Town and I can't get that to work with what is left (Ultra/Fang/Goth). Will keep going but I'm still inclined to dismiss the Richard read for reasons I've outlined above. Okay, finished the ISO. I can bump Fang to top scum off of it, even though Magic had town reads on both. Ultimately my top 3 doesn't change. I think I've done my due diligence in respecting dead town Magic's reads there - I am almost entirely leaving reading Shep up to him (though I am ignoring his takes on Richard/Poyser never being scum together).
Next is CP. I'm ignoring where he was wrong or astray, such as his early comments around Magic.
#578 CP agrees with Ultra on Poyser Scum.
#608 Likes a Fang post
#625 Scum on Ekko, Town on Poyser
#634 Scum on Richard (!)
#636 Explains that he believes Richard basically has nothing of substance to say
#661 Questions Nat
#692, #700 Questions Richard
#731 Expresses that he thinks he might be giving Richard a pass (can't see any response to this post either, a pity)
#1336 Wants to vote Richard
#1339 Again, wants to vote Richard, Shield Poyser
#1354 Confirms the above
#1488 CP *really* wants Richard dead
And that's basically the end of anything interesting in the ISO. I think my conclusion is obvious - if there is any legacy to honour on the dead N1 townie here it's Richard, who CP wanted to murder badly. I obviously don't need prompting because this is music to my ears but I'm a bit surprised no one has covered this stuff already. Those are the only two townies that were killed by scum at the time of writing this. If I use their takes to compass my own, I'm left with:
Town - Shep Nat Ekko Ultra
Null - Goth
Scum - Richard Fang
In other words it hasn't really changed at all - I feel a bit more confident on Nat being town and in Fang being scum, wavering a little on Ultra town but still happy to have him there. I am a tad less confident on Richard but I can only really come to it being goth if not those two anyway.
That's where I'm at - AMA.
Nap time (I was not intending on having to do this on 3 hours sleep).
Hell no, I ain't unignoring him ever
What a wall of text. Great gameplay, only that I am town and my claim makes sense.I'm writing this up over the night phase - for context I ignored everyone in the thread except for Poyser, Fang and Richard. Because they're admins, I also couldn't ignore Ultra, which means he gets included in here a fair amount, but I'm mostly satisfied with my read on his slot from how Poyser interacted with him Day 1. Poyser gets very defensive over this line of questioning from Ultra - by default that leans to them being unaligned. There is more to consider here, though. This being one of them. As scum, Poyser early on was reluctant to commit to scum reading Magic, presumably out of reservation for Magic catching him. For this to be scum theatre. Ultra would have to be aware of this *on some level* (he'd know Magic is Town, and Poyser is scum), and then cast a huge spotlight onto how Poyser is handling Magic in a way that only really serves to be damaging. Basically, Ultra's point is that Poyser was treating Magic with a degree of TMI - this is seldom the kind of distancing you see from scum, who would be more eager to use results-based analysis to discredit their mates because being wrong doesn't mean you have to be scum. This is almost signing the death warrant for Poyser, on day 1. My initial thought here was that I don't know if Poyser is so keen to buddy up with a scum mate like this by just strongly reading him town - but his defence of this read comes down to meta that is honestly a lay-up to discredit. Poyser doesn't really evolve from the read, and while Fang did question the read, it came more from a place of wanting to correct Poyser on the semantics rather than feeling like he was being buddied up towards. So, my expectation here is that Poyser is going to want to talk about scum mates somewhere. Early game, these are the main slots he voices any real opinion of, beyond Ultra/Nat as scum. I haven't really got anything further to talk about with this specific list, except to say that between Fang/Nat/Ultra/Ekko we obviously have at least one scum, and my overall contention here is that it's Fang. Ultra just continues to dismantle Poyser's arguments. For them to be scum here, without being able to communicate they would have to set out to hard bus the other, in a setup where they number only 3 vs 13 townies. It doesn't seem very likely to me. Brought this up because this is in response to Ultra asking for Fang to elaborate on his scum reads of Poyser and Ekko. He doesn't do this - he deflects the question and claims that he satisfied the burden of evidence for his position already. Notably, he doesn't seem too interested in pushing his point of view or persuading anyone on it - given his later grandstanding, this is rather interesting. Just wanted to bring up this post - look at how much he talks about the Ekko Town read, he's very confident in his reasoning even though it doesn't really go anywhere. He obviously wants to give the impression that he has given it a lot of thought. Contrast it with Poyser, and... well there's nothing. My point here is that this strikes me as TMI - he knows Ekko is town, so is happy to regale his phoned-in meta read to justify his town read, but with Poyser, he has nothing - he simply ties the two together. Poyser sort of has the opposite issue - he has lots to say about why he town reads Fang, but as far as Ekko is concerned, the crux of his reasoning comes down to "he has focused on fewer players and is being annoying in a townie way". The point I'm making with these post sis that it's clear that Poyser/Fang treat their town reads differently for no real reason, in a way that could suggest they are connected. I don't want to claim this is a slam dunk because it's not, but it's important because we are trying to find scum from the spew of a player who will have been doing his best to hide it. This does run counter to my belief, sort of. It's pretty weak, but inviting suspicion is strange as scum, and I'd be disingenuous to pretend like posts like this do not exist. You will like who my top scum read is, then! This is a mark against Nat. Given that it ended up in a mislynch anyway, Poyser backing off from the wagon looks like cold feet. That being said, if Poyser/Nat were distancing, I wouldn't expect Poyser to just run away from it knowing how it will look. I have no defence for this, so don't bother asking. This does come across as buddying up to a town player. I actually had a scum read on Poyser while this was live and appreciated Ultra catching on to this too - Poyser essentially ties Ultra to Remchu because Ultra has a strong meta read on Rem, and it was obviously horseshit because it is just picking alignment based on results - not the process on how they were achieved. You can probably argue that, with Rem flipping town Poyser doesn't gain anything by tying a townie with a townie, but if this were scum, I sort of expect Ultra to just take the linkage and run with it anyway. Dismantling it, and Poyser's internal logic once again, only comes from Scum Ultra if they set on hard bussing from the off. Brought this up because Richard barely actually talks about his reads - he just links them based on results. This is how I would expect scum to distance from a scum mate - to include them in a PoE with a couple of townies and say one of them is scum. Brought this up because while Poyser does express he wants votes on Richard, he never really drives it, and contrast his demeanour here with how he was with Ultra at the start - it looks and sounds different. Namely, there is significantly less abrasion, and his questioning is more conducive to allowing Richard to embellish his reasoning that to actually attack his logic. This is more abrasive, but I don't feel like anything prevents it from being scum/scum, in context, he would have seen Richard try to link him with Ekko and would obviously need to address it - to either prop himself or Richard up later in the game. I'm aware that this isn't really a point, but my intention here is to cast a light on their interactions and to then explain why I think it could come from distancing. When the conversation seems to be getting out of hand, Richard switches tack, and Poyser never doubles down or follows up. *This* is a point, because the deflection from Richard here doesn't actually hold up at all, and serves only to cool off an interaction between him and Poyser. Poyser's response to this (none) is equally telling - if he's looking to mislynch Richard, he can easily bury him for this. This reads as ingenuine, in the same way he was regarding voting Ekko in Fallout New Vegas. I think Fang struggles with this element of Mafia - his apology reads as insincere and it feels like he's trying to placate Remchu. A truly awful vote, and one that doesn't actually make any sense. Why is he voting out of policy here? These posts come within the same page, I don't think Poyser ever adequately pushes Richard to justify this level of suspicion. In this page alone he goes from aksing for Richard votes to saying "um well, maybe don't". These reads make little to no sense. He doesn't bother reasoning them, either - nor does he explain why he suddenly has Poyser a s atown read. This doesn't feel very genuine, either. Why does he even think he's a wagon given the majority of the discussion end of day was around Ekko/Rem? It's funny given how much Fang postures later that he was "town coring" Scum when the two people he discredits both pushed said scum. This makes 0 sense - how does Richard being town make magic super trustworthy even? Given how Poyser played around Magic, I can reconcile this as tying to a scum buddy... but I'll let you make your own conclusions. Here he ties Tweet to Scum!Richard. This is utter hogwash, and while I think I've already established this point - is not the kind of angle scum attack each other with. It only serves to make one party look horrible. Quoted this because he piped up basically within a minute of Ultra beginning to properly discuss him - struck me as lurking. Also reads as ingenuine. I struggle to reconcile Poyser seeing his scum mate claim usage, claims to scum lock them, and then walk it back later on like this. It points to Ekko/Poyser not being aligned. This, honestly, looks good for Fang. This, however, is nonsense. Ultra posted a case on RDK at the start of the day. At this point, I think this is notably defensive of Fang - given that for it to hold up, it requires ignoring context from Fang's most recent scum game here. I think this looks good for Nat - Nat claimed early on, so I assume they'd have to discuss the claim, to post like this around her would essentially amount to them agreeing for Poyser to bus Nat, the same Nat who clears Magic of all players. Yeah, I can't defend this either. I have no idea why he claims so easily, and the claim actually doesn't really make sense. If we take all the claims at face value, we have a watcher, an alignment cop with a restriction, a limited role cop, a busdriver and a voyeur. The voyeur is the only one that's delayed, and we know we get special roles if recruits happen in addition to this. I don't really want to speculate heavily on the setup, but if we accept that at least one of the claims is fake, Richard's circumstances around claiming is the most suspect. This reads as buddying up to Ekko, though part of me thinks it looks good for Richard too. Noting because Aurelian later uses Ekko wanting the IC lynched to discredit Ekko, here he uses it as an example of something intrinsic to his town game. His suspicion doesn't make much sense. Why would he claim here? both Fang and Richard are happy to play fast a loose with claims after day chat was a thing - there is nothing over the course of the day to explain why they feel the need to claim. Positionally looks bad. I don't feel like any of this tracks logically. Why does he need Poyser to defend her? Why does he think he or Hime will die? This folds back in to another observation of Fang's wider play I have - he *loves* tying himself to another player when defending his arguments. Make of this what you will. While I can appreciate a fellow Channer, the meme arrows don't actually work here. Notice bringing up Hime, unprompted? Her saying she has a power role doesn't actually discredit the accusation that Ultra has, quoted above. Here he brings up Lethal - without anything really linking him doing so congruently. I'll be able to establish this better later. This isn't even remotely true. This does harm my Richard/Fang solve, because I don't think scum would just forget about it. Well, it could be a freudian slip I suppose. I believe the "in" term now is "a pick-me girl". The problem I have here is you've made no attempt to analyse his interactions with Poyser - zero. "I want to read him town, but this one element I can argue undoes it all for me!" - nonsense. I question if this void even needs filling, though. Ingenuine, and also what the hell is this? Why would he randomly vote Ekko when he wants to get something cleared up and otherwise had him as solid town? Comes across as posturing. I probably wouldn't have lynched Hime yesterday, but I do think she espoused some absolute dreck at times. This is.. fair, but Ultra, you're essentially just taking one element of her play and allowing that to change your read based on it being the most recent thing about her. I'm aware you went back through and checked her interactions but if I have any reservations about your play from last day phase, it's how you talked into a Hime lynch based on where you were beforehand. This doesn't really help, either - especially when you never explicitly state here why it's bad (I can see why, but compromise is needed sometimes). Awful post - he's essentially running damage control (and he also says later that he'll lynch Ekko regardless of what Psychic flips). You have yet to establish that the shield talk is conducive to catching scum. Ties himself with Nat (remember what I said earlier, he does it *a lot* day 4). Ties himself with Nat again. This is one of your worst posts in the game - inviting opening up your solve when your read is proven correct? How does that even work? Interesting that he brings up fang here and does... nothing with it. Poisoning the Well. Ties himself to Nat/Hime. The problem is you're claiming that the wagons are between two people, and then trying to cite maths as evidence for this, in spite of the maths actually putting your preferred lynch in the minority. Ties himself to Nat again. He doesn't seem willing to defend anything without also bringing up another player to compare himself with. If you don't know what is suspicious about that, it's that it's a form of buddying. Shep was explicitly answering a hypothetical - you using that answer to include him in your PoE (which shouldn't even work from your stated positions) is a poor response. Poisoning the Well. What even is this post? Buddying. You didn't mechanically clear Hime at all, though.
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I do have some reservations. Magic Town reading Richard, for one. The problem is - I think Ekko, Ultra and Nat are all Town. I can see a world where Ekko and Ultra are scum together, but it's not really worth consideration when contrasted with the evidence against it. There is a small chance nat is scum, but it requires her interaction with Poyser to be some 6D chess. There is Shepard, who I don't really have a strong impression of, given that this re-read has been with most players ignored and I've skipped about half of day 1, but seems to be consensus town and frankly isn't pushing anything for better or worse. What drives my read though is the certainty that Magic had on him being Town - he was killed for a reason and I don't think he'd be so confident without having a very good grasp of Shep's play. I see 0 reason to contemplate his slot here. This isn't blind sheeping - dead Town should be listened to, and Magic had town reads on Lethal and Hime from where I'm up to in his ISO, which would be 2 mislynches avoided. That leaves Fang, Richard, Goth. Goth can be anything, though I do think as town he tends to have some posts that look like thoughts, which can be found here sparingly.
To summarise, my issue with Fang's play is that several takes appear ingenuine, he makes a point to tie himself to other players, and most of his arguing comes down to not really addressing the point and hoping his interlocutor runs out of patience. My issue with Richard is that he fits the profile of coasting scum to a t - his reasoning is mostly flawed, his claim and target makes little sense and several posts have struck me as ingenuine. While none of this is a sure thing for either, with the other slots having more reason to town read them this is the solve I'm left with.
Richard
Aurelian
Goth
Nat
Ekko
Ultra
Shepard
That's ordered most scum to least. It's a little annoying because in my head I can word this better but I'm pretty fatigued at the moment so I've cut corners in regards to establishing my points. If you need me to expand on anything specifically please let me know.
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I'm going through Magic's ISO, Magic I'm trying to honour your reads but where I am currently you have Shep, Ekko, Nat, Richard all Town and I can't get that to work with what is left (Ultra/Fang/Goth). Will keep going but I'm still inclined to dismiss the Richard read for reasons I've outlined above. Okay, finished the ISO. I can bump Fang to top scum off of it, even though Magic had town reads on both. Ultimately my top 3 doesn't change. I think I've done my due diligence in respecting dead town Magic's reads there - I am almost entirely leaving reading Shep up to him (though I am ignoring his takes on Richard/Poyser never being scum together).
Next is CP. I'm ignoring where he was wrong or astray, such as his early comments around Magic.
#578 CP agrees with Ultra on Poyser Scum.
#608 Likes a Fang post
#625 Scum on Ekko, Town on Poyser
#634 Scum on Richard (!)
#636 Explains that he believes Richard basically has nothing of substance to say
#661 Questions Nat
#692, #700 Questions Richard
#731 Expresses that he thinks he might be giving Richard a pass (can't see any response to this post either, a pity)
#1336 Wants to vote Richard
#1339 Again, wants to vote Richard, Shield Poyser
#1354 Confirms the above
#1488 CP *really* wants Richard dead
And that's basically the end of anything interesting in the ISO. I think my conclusion is obvious - if there is any legacy to honour on the dead N1 townie here it's Richard, who CP wanted to murder badly. I obviously don't need prompting because this is music to my ears but I'm a bit surprised no one has covered this stuff already. Those are the only two townies that were killed by scum at the time of writing this. If I use their takes to compass my own, I'm left with:
Town - Shep Nat Ekko Ultra
Null - Goth
Scum - Richard Fang
In other words it hasn't really changed at all - I feel a bit more confident on Nat being town and in Fang being scum, wavering a little on Ultra town but still happy to have him there. I am a tad less confident on Richard but I can only really come to it being goth if not those two anyway.
That's where I'm at - AMA.
Nap time (I was not intending on having to do this on 3 hours sleep).
Voyeur also seems too broken. Doesn't it say Town only gets a special invest role AFTER a convert?Hell no, I ain't unignoring him ever
Tell me Richie, is he your teammate? And also what did you do last night?
With the absence of converts, your voyeur claim keeps morphing into a pointless role.
It does. And if so we haven't gotten that yet
Voyeured Ekkologix - no result.Hell no, I ain't unignoring him ever
Tell me Richie, is he your teammate? And also what did you do last night?
With the absence of converts, your voyeur claim keeps morphing into a pointless role.
Why did you voyeur him? If you town read him, and he claimed he rejected a convert yesterday, why do you think he'd be targeted by mafia two times in a row?Voyeured Ekkologix - no result.
Ekko and me are not mafia together. Maybe we both are town together tho, would that make us a team too?
Then why should there be a Voyeur who can already see conversion attempts on a target?
This isn't obvious at all. I mean, it can obviously be dismissed because if the writeup, but even if that wasn't the case, it's just a random guess. If anyone is getting killed, it's Shepard. You know the consensus townie.
This level of confidence I a game we have mislynched 4 times in is, frankly, absurd. 8f anything, the chances of winning would be hanging by a thread, not "unloseable". This is where you start to lose me, because the position makes absolutely no sense.
I wish you wouldn't do this - I am fine with settling on half of that list, but I at least want a discussion on the other.
We don't actually need to assume that, given that we are 4 mislynches and 1 modkill deep into the game and it still isn't called. I know the recruits will make the swing a little more generous by default but that's really the only discussion to be had around this I suspect - because if they don't have to include themselves then it's a mechanic that gives them a forced no lynch at worst which... doesn't strike me as unreasonable given the 13/3 split and optional recruitment.
Not very easily at all - I do think I could argue that Ekko has read Richard as town a bit too quickly but it unravels when I consider Richard's votes on Ekko, and also Ekko/Poyser, and also Ekko setting his stall out to defend Psychic, his Watcher claim, the presumed failed kill Night 2 - I would have to get past an awful lot to reach this one. I don't see myself getting there, no.
