TYPE-Moon/Nasuverse Feats/General Thread

[ChaosTheory123]

Okay so apparently, that new Fate game was confirmed to not be a Warriors type game, but an Action RPG...

Now I'm really interested.

I personally like the theory I saw in one youtube comment suggesting this is Pan Human History Musashi given his two sword style and his vague allusion to recognizing Lost Belt Musashi's techniques.

Its a stretch, but would be neat if it panned out.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

I personally like the theory I saw in one youtube comment suggesting this is Pan Human History Musashi given his two sword style and his vague allusion to recognizing Lost Belt Musashi's techniques.

Its a stretch, but would be neat if it panned out.

I can actually like that too but I do agree it's sadly a stretch.

 

[Type-Rey]

From his appereance, i'd venture to say he's more likely to be Chinese or Korean.

Also, you can stretch the definition of a Action RPG to include Musou .

If this doesn't play like P5 Strikers or something like that, i'll eat my hand.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

From his appereance, i'd venture to say he's more likely to be Chinese or Korean.

Also, you can stretch the definition of a Action RPG to include Musou .

If this doesn't play like P5 Strikers or something like that, i'll eat my hand.

If we get a Ni-Oh tier combat style, I'll join you.

 

[Type-Rey]

Dunno about that, but at the very least it should have better combat than a Marvelous game ....

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

*Looks at Hyrule Warriors, Fire Emblem Warriors*
Yeah, it definitely will so I'm game no matter what.

 

[lokoxDZz]

It honestly makes the most amount of sense due to those connections and explains his 3rd Ascension. He didn't take over Angra Mainyu, he just has access to the next best thing.

They are probrably going with Azi Dahaka as the "Ultimate Evil",i think Angra Mainyu even try to get rid of him in mythology but fails at it

 

[Proto234]

Seeing how the first part of 7 was...to put it nicely...underwhelming, the wait is kinda long.
I would be excited for the new game if not for the fact that i'm kinda tired of the 100th Fate spinoff shit.
FsF is literally whatever.

Well, tbf, LB6 part 1 is also somewhat underwhelming minus Oberon and Cornwall forest part, so I still have faith that LB7 part 2 will deliver.

It remains to be seen if LB7 > LB6 storywise

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Nice way to add in what he did in Post-LB1 as a battle animation.

 

[GaRbS]

Also, Kirei being "fodder" in the church is relative when at his peak in Zero he can wreck Ciel and Bazett per WoG and his best feats are accomplished literally minutes before he dies. Everything else is just accolades and powerscaling.

That statement was made in 2010, so it's about the OG Ciel, the one from 2000, not the one from the Tsukihime remake in 2021. The last volume of Fate/Zero being from 2007.

And Bazett herself is no match for Ciel. Not to mention the statement of Kirei being stronger than Bazett was made not taking weapons or magecraft into account.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

That statement was made in 2010, so it's about the OG Ciel, the one from 2000, not the one from the Tsukihime remake in 2021. The last volume of Fate/Zero being from 2007.

No real distinction to make when the feats from Tsukihime need propped up from Fate to even matter beyond 30% Arcueid’s bullshit from Melty Blood. Fate even gave more concrete context to Nrvnqsr Chaos otherwise left worthless on its own merits.

Beyond her space laser, the fuck does she really do in the remake worth a damn? Haven’t had time to pick it thoroughly apart like I did the OG Tsukihime material.

Regardless, it’s cute you think have a shelf life. Is Nasu your only multimedia fandom? It has to be to have this silly point of view.

And Bazett herself is no match for Ciel.

Bazett has better powerscaling than Ciel outside Powered Ciel being vaguely compared to 30% Arcueid in Melty Blood by a Kohaku battle quote.

Both legit have garbage for feats without accolades though.

Not to mention the statement of Kirei being stronger than Bazett was made not taking weapons or magecraft into account.

Her best feats are trading blows with Leysritt and if you squint maybe briefly trading with an Saber Alter stand in of unknown strength whereas Kirei close to death was causing Sword Body Shirou all kinds of injury where even his internals are hilariously durable.

Honestly, it’s pretty easy to shit on Bazett by showings just as it is for Ciel.

 

[Type-Rey]

It also doesn't matter when the statement was made and about which version.
Unless there's another statement "correcting " what was said before or we are shown stuff that blatantly contradicts the original quote, something that hasn't happened yet, Kirei still benefits from it.

I've explained this before to turd brain, but he's not one to listen .

So i'll just resume my laughing at him.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Unless there's another statement "correcting " what was said before or we are shown stuff that blatantly contradicts the original quote, something that hasn't happened yet, Kirei still benefits from it.

On this topic?

I mean, Bazett’s propped up on the false premise her battle power exceeds Shirou outside Fraga. Something we can easily spot for the bullshit it is when even Fate Shirou can mimick strength enough to briefly trade with Herakles where all Bazett could do was run after Fraga didn’t cut it.

Same with being 3 times Rin, when we also know Medea pushes Bazett’s shit in despite Rin stalemating some of Medea’s shit with her strongest gemcraft and shattering her defensive reinforcement (pretty sure that’s what the glass shattering SFX were in that fight?) with her modern reinforced strength.

I take most statements said at face value when not contradicted. Problem is, the statements for people he’s supporting get outright contradicted by real showings

I've explained this before to turd brain, but he's not one to listen .

So i'll just resume my laughing at him.

Oh, he’s entirely bad faith. That much is clear. Still kills time while waiting for my car to be serviced

 

[Type-Rey]

I mean, Bazett’s propped up on the false premise her battle power exceeds Shirou outside Fraga

Not even that, it's propped up on her having experience and being a better fighter which sure, she has both those things i guess, but it outside of Fraga, won't help much when you're punching a brick.

omething we can easily spot for the bullshit it is when even Fate Shirou can mimick strength enough to briefly trade with Herakles where all Bazett could do was run after Fraga didn’t cut it.

I guess, but Herk is a special context cause he can revive, any other Servant in that tier (Saber for example) dies and she doesn't have to run , or ends in double KO if her opponent has the same BS (Cu).

But yeah, Fraga is the difference maker here.

Though i guess if we take her Kaleid feats into account, where she can at least dominate Kuro and hurt child Gil (with help) , things might get a little closer.

Same with being 3 times Rin, when we also know Medea pushes Bazett’s shit in despite Rin stalemating some of Medea’s shit with her strongest gemcraft and shattering her defensive reinforcement (pretty sure that’s what the glass shattering SFX were in that fight?) with her modern reinforced strength.

Agreed, but again, she shit cans both Luvia and Rin in Kaleid without much of an issue but because i'm feeling lazy right now, i'll just chug it to being "different versions" and leave it at that.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

That statement was made in 2010, so it's about the OG Ciel, the one from 2000, not the one from the Tsukihime remake in 2021. The last volume of Fate/Zero being from 2007.

Okay? The hell does that matter? If your entire point is literally that somehow new canon overtakes the old in a series where Nasu constantly brings in the old canon to help shape his new ideas(I remember Nasu talked about ORT being the equivalent of a Bonus Boss that's stronger than the Final Boss... around that exact same time... Oh LOOK! FGO has ORT in it and he's superior to U-Olga Marie in every facet!), then I think you legit need to actually stop and actually read the series.

Unless Nasu explicitly goes against that statement(like he did with Heracles and his God Hand when Takeuchi believed Nasu had it be completely impervious to whatever attacked it rather than gain a +100 Resistance), then no, Kotomine is still > Ciel at his absolute best, no matter if it's the Remake or the Original(Especially since the Remake heavily references the Original in many areas).

And Bazett herself is no match for Ciel. Not to mention the statement of Kirei being stronger than Bazett was made not taking weapons or magecraft into account.

1. Bazett is still weaker than Kotomine at his absolute best(10 Years Ago and/or with Command Spells), Nasu made that part clear:

Q: Between Kotomine, Bazett, Kuzuki, Melty Blood’s Miyako, and Kishima Kouma, who’d be the top 3 in a purely hand to hand fight with no weapons or magecraft?

A: I’m excluding Kouma since his existence itself has become a mystery.
And even if he didn’t have that nature, he’s like an athlete caught by drug testing.
Out of the four left, the winner in pure strength is Bazett.
If it’s limited to one match and a surprise attack, then it’s Kuzuki.
And if it’s the Kotomine from ten years ago, he’s stronger than Bazett overall.

2. Bazett is strong as hell, but you are putting her on a pedestal she does have access to.
As the others stated, she would easily lose to Medea even faster than Rin would and she would give no chances to Bazett to even try otherwise in comparison to Rin.
I haven't even seen her being stronger than Shirou in any capacity considering Shirou even in F/SN can take a kick from Shinji Medusa and not instantly die, even being too difficult for her to kill without really going all out.
Nasu definitely loves going with the "More experience" angle which isn't honestly even bullshit considering having even 10 years experience over someone in a fight is a huge difference.

So yeah, I call bullshit on everything you say and unlike the other two, I can admit I have not the best memory of the various Nasuverse escapades.

EDIT: Even if you wanna bring in "But Fragrach", considering how Fragrach even works, Kotomine from F/Z would demolish Bazett as he has no real "Trump Card" past Command Spell usage. He has no real technique past "Super Bajiquan" and that's basically a style, not a "Trump Card".

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Not even that, it's propped up on her having experience and being a better fighter which sure, she has both those things i guess, but it outside of Fraga, won't help much when you're punching a brick.

Pretty much. Doesn’t help her vague “trump card” rules wouldn’t apply to just projecting and bullshit mimicking the strength of the person who wielded what he projects. As far as that distinction goes, it applies to NP type release shit IIRC.

I guess, but Herk is a special context cause he can revive, any other Servant in that tier (Saber for example) dies and she doesn't have to run , or ends in double KO if her opponent has the same BS (Cu).

Definitely, just more talking her battle power is insufficient to trade like even the least developed Shirou could.

But yeah, Fraga is the difference maker here.

It really is, because it’s a pretty bullshit weapon

Though i guess if we take her Kaleid feats into account, where she can at least dominate Kuro and hurt child Gil (with help) , things might get a little closer.

I’m fine taking them, if only because HA doesn’t do her any real justice.

Agreed, but again, she shit cans both Luvia and Rin in Kaleid without much of an issue but because i'm feeling lazy right now, i'll just chug it to being "different versions" and leave it at that.

Hell, I don’t doubt her supremacy in overall combat. Just the 3 times statement is directly contradicted bullshit when Rin’s ceiling is “can take a life from Herakles”.

This ignores HF Rin, but the Jeweled Sword definitely qualifies as the vague trump card distinction Fraga makes.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Though i guess if we take her Kaleid feats into account, where she can at least dominate Kuro and hurt child Gil (with help) , things might get a little closer.

Agreed, but again, she shit cans both Luvia and Rin in Kaleid without much of an issue but because i'm feeling lazy right now, i'll just chug it to being "different versions" and leave it at that.

But wouldn't Kotomine, especially Prime Kotomine, still scale to Bazett if we did that considering the shit he pulled with Shirou in his weakened condition in Heaven's Feel?
It wouldn't be a one sided slaughter anymore(Especially since it's hard for me to really see characters, even in different timelines, being that much superior to themselves unless there is a major reason told for it) but it would still be in Kotomine's favor.

Though I believe that's what you basically came to the same conclusion right?

 

[Type-Rey]

Kotomine's scalling was never in question.
Despite Garbs' s gibberish, at his very best, he's still > Bazett and Ciel as far as we're concerned.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Of course, I was more mentioning if we do scale HF Bazett to her Prisma Illya self which I honestly don't see a reason not to considering at the end of the day, nobody there have really shown anything they couldn't do in the F/SN timelines outside of Illya not being a Homonculus with a Holy Grail tied to her this time.

 

[GaRbS]

Okay? The hell does that matter? If your entire point is literally that somehow new canon overtakes the old in a series where Nasu constantly brings in the old canon to help shape his new ideas(I remember Nasu talked about ORT being the equivalent of a Bonus Boss that's stronger than the Final Boss... around that exact same time... Oh LOOK! FGO has ORT in it and he's superior to U-Olga Marie in every facet!), then I think you legit need to actually stop and actually read the series.

That's rich coming from the guy that has admitted to not having read a single of Nasu's novels.

Unless Nasu explicitly goes against that statement(like he did with Heracles and his God Hand when Takeuchi believed Nasu had it be completely impervious to whatever attacked it rather than gain a +100 Resistance), then no, Kotomine is still > Ciel at his absolute best, no matter if it's the Remake or the Original(Especially since the Remake heavily references the Original in many areas).

Ciel's demonstrated feats and scaling put her above Kirei at his prime. Kirei at his prime isn't even that much stronger than Kirei in FSN. He needs 10 Command Spells to defeat the weakest Servant in the 5th Holy Grail War, Cursed Arm Hassan. He can only defeat Servants that don't specialize in hand to hand combat like Assassins and Casters, needing good conditions like pride and suitability to defeat Servants that do specialize in H2H combat. His best objective feat is being compared to a basic ass Dead Apostle in combat ability.

Beyond her space laser, the fuck does she really do in the remake worth a damn? Haven’t had time to pick it thoroughly apart like I did the OG Tsukihime material.

Ciel has killed 4 Dead Apostle Ancestors. Ancestors are unfathomably stronger than basic ass Dead Apostles. DA's as a whole are stronger in Tsukihime than in Fate due to the Human Order being stronger in Fate worlds.
Ancestors are now even stronger in the lore because they have Idea Blood, their special superpower they get from being an Ancestor, whereas Ancestors in old Tsukihime had mostly random shit from abilities they cobbled together on their own and sometimes a Reality Marble that wasn't even guaranteed to be good in battle.
Rank VIII Dead Apostles, the Successors of the Dead Apostle Ancestors (Rank IX) are stronger than True Ancestors.
DAA and their Idea Bloods are compared to Divine Spirits and their Authorities.
Ciel has the strongest magecraft humanity has, equal in Mystery to Excalibur, a giant beam of light dozens of kilometers in size.
Can even defeat a rampaging Arcueid.
Remake Ciel has mastered every weapon, has been trained by a DAA, has all of Roa’s wacky shit and seems more frequent to bring it out, has way more church gear than before and the numerous Idea Bloods of the 3 Ancestors she has killed, which can give even Ancestors pause, etc

Bazett has better powerscaling than Ciel outside Powered Ciel being vaguely compared to 30% Arcueid in Melty Blood by a Kohaku battle quote.

Not really, even OG Ciel was stated to be too strong for a group of Sion, Tohno Shiki and Akiha to defeat. Sion herself being stated to have physical prowess that rivals or surpasses that of a Dead Apostle, which already puts her on the same level of Kirei at his prime.

I haven't even seen her being stronger than Shirou in any capacity considering Shirou even in F/SN can take a kick from Shinji Medusa and not instantly die, even being too difficult for her to kill without really going all out.
Nasu definitely loves going with the "More experience" angle which isn't honestly even bullshit considering having even 10 years experience over someone in a fight is a huge difference.

Shinji's Medusa? The same one that is so weak Zouken was confident Hassan could easily defeat? Meanwhile Bazett trades blows with Leysritt, who has a rank of strength matching that of Sakura's Medusa.

EDIT: Even if you wanna bring in "But Fragrach", considering how Fragrach even works, Kotomine from F/Z would demolish Bazett as he has no real "Trump Card" past Command Spell usage. He has no real technique past "Super Bajiquan" and that's basically a style, not a "Trump Card".

His usage of Command Spells is explicitly stated by Nasu to be a trump card.