I have honestly seen this alot and yes, while we here at Outskirts Battle Dome knows that it's a bunch of crap, it's ultimately something I see happen alot within the Nasuverse Discussions of various Servant abilities:
I.E. Their "inconsistent" speed.
You know the ones: The "Faster than the Speed of Sound" call for their attacks, Belleophron being 500KMPH, Hessian Lobo's speed being only at 200-300KMPH, The V-Max Artoria gets in on goes at 400KMPH, Lancelot's guns and how they need to use Arash's Trick to go to the other Mountain quickly rather than basically "speed burst" to the other Mountain before everyone there gets murdered by Mordred's troops.
Now, I'm not going to use Calcs or anything like that here because again, I know people don't usually use them or they want to use their own or just hates calcs. Instead, I'm actually going to use the universe's own reason and logic as well as the sentence structure to debunk most of these as well as basic forethought.
Now for the first part:
Servants are only Mach because "Faster Than the Speed of Sound" Now we primarily get this from feats in the past and even sometimes now from random authors and Nasu himself, here, I'll actually use something from Hippolayta as everyone likes to use this example
But it was the horsewoman who moved first. She was refining a divine aura, even more potent than before, behind the archer’s back. She had leapt off her steed as she fired, and, using it as a decoy, had gotten behind her enemy.
“...Impudent,” the archer muttered, and started to turn. Before he had the chance, however, an arrow struck his back, just where his heart was, at the speed of sound.
And yet, for some reason, no sooner had the arrowhead struck the man’s body — struck the cloth draped over his head — than it splintered, scattering to the winds without eating into his flesh.
“I knew it...” The rider he had called “queen” groaned at the sight. More than surprise, the groan seemed to imply the confirmation of her conjecture.
“...I see,” Gilgamesh muttered. He had temporarily re-boarded Vimana, and been surveying events from the ground.
“Has Your Majesty learned something?” Tine timidly inquired.
“How that mere bowman was able to defend against all my Noble Phantasms,” the King of Heroes replied amusedly, “as well as why he failed to defend against a blow of that mere horsewoman’s fist.”
“There is a reason, then...?”
“A trifle. His armor is special, that’s all.”
“His... armor?” Tine asked, turning to look at the archer, who had returned to earth.
Now, you can point out that yes, it is correct, Hippolayta's arrow only shot at the Speed of Sound... except notice what happened. She explicitly caught Alcides offguard but Alcides's cloth(Nemean Lion Pelt) destroyed it. So ultimately, Alcides didn't need to do anything and ultimately never took Hippolayta seriously but at the same time, she explicitly juked him with a fake and hoped that would have given her the time to fire at him unaware.
This also doesn't jive with what we get in the Manga and LN beforehand where Gilgamesh's Lightning Bolt Trap explicitly was able to destroy an arrow moving faster than the speed of sound... but not the second arrow despite the Electric Trap was meant for Enkidu(Meaning it can handle a mass volley from Age of Babylon):
A red clay ravine several kilometers further north of the cave where Gilgamesh had been summoned.
The man stood on a rise that reached almost the same elevation as the top floor of Crystal Hill. A lean, wiry man, just over two meters tall. His hands clutched a bow. It was larger than an ordinary longbow, but it seemed a little undersized in the tall man’s hands.
…
The man — who looked at first glance like he was about to appear in a horror game and chase its protagonist around — smirked under the cloth that covered his face, and silently drew his bow taut.
Then his fingers released the bowstring, and loosed an arrow. An arrow that flew far faster than the wind, and outstripped even the speed of sound.
…
A wind like a blade carved a straight line through the city of Snowfield. It split the air, throwing off shockwaves. By the time a roar like thunder filled the area, the wind had already passed.
At the wind’s center was a single arrow. It was headed toward the top floor of a skyscraper in the heart of Snowfield — Crystal Hill.
The arrow shot by the mystery man plunged ahead like a laser, defying the laws of physics by never slowing or losing altitude. It had already traveled more than 20 kilometers. That alone was enough to prove that the archer was no human, and no ordinary mage.
Shockwaves raced through the sky over the city. The impact and noise together shattered the glass of every building below the arrow’s trajectory one after another.
No human — no, not even a Heroic Spirit — could survive a direct hit from such a missile unscathed. The strike would reduce their entire upper body to mincemeat before it even pierced their skull.
The arrow was charging straight toward its target: Gilgamesh, the King of Heroes, who had taken up his position on the highest floor of Crystal Hill.
Or rather, the head of the girl standing beside him — his Master.
By the time she sensed the wind being ripped to shreds, it was already too late. A tiny point of death was closing in on the girl, too close for her to react in time. No matter what she tried to do now, there was no way of avoiding the supersonic arrow.
At least, not for her.
“...”
An instant later, when the arrow had come within 20 meters of the hotel, thunder sounded outside the glass. There was a dazzling flash, and countless tiny bolts of lightning streaked through the sky. One of them appeared to strike the arrow, and what should have been a killing blow disintegrated in the air just short of its target. The shockwaves, however, still shattered the glass, and assailed everyone in the room.
…
“What was that lightning...?”
“The very thunderbolts are my Noble Phantasms. It appears they have intercepted some attack,” Gilgamesh replied offhandedly.
“An attack?” Tine could not keep from blurting out.
When she looked out the window, she saw that there were a number of discs floating around the top of the building. The Noble Phantasms continued to make their rounds, clad in miniature lightning, inscribing beautiful geometric designs against the vista.
“Auto Defensors. There was a chance that my friend might jestingly launch a surprise attack. I set them up as a precaution, but...”
Tine was wary. Gilgamesh, however, remained expressionless.
“...Are you coming?” He muttered.
But the second shot had already been fired.
The Auto Defensors’ lightning activated to intercept the arrow, but although several bolts struck home, it slipped through the gaps in the bolts to fly straight at Gilgamesh. The speed at which electricity travels through air — that is, the speed of lightning — while slower than light, still should to have been more than sufficient to catch any ordinary arrow. The speed of that arrow, however, was beyond human limitations.
Gilgamesh immediately materialized his armor, and swept the arrow aside with his left gauntlet. It seemed that it could not completely kill the shot’s momentum, however, because a portion of the armor cracked, and fragments of gold showered the floor.
And here's the Manga version of these 2 points:
https://imgur.com/a/4DlVXqf https://imgur.com/a/Rk30jnB Now I will say this to be certain: You can say it's an author error because obviously, Authors are people too and good luck on keeping anything 100% consistent because it feels weird to come off as having Alcides arrow ultimately bypass a Lightning Trap and Gilgamesh can easily smack it away but Alcides be "too slow" to deal with Hippolayta's arrow... but you can also say that because of the pelt, Alcides finds no reason to actually dodge or block it(He explicitly doesn't do it when Gilgamesh tries to pelt him with Noble Phantasms until he goes nuts with them). AND to ultimately go further with the Lightning Trap being true, I will point that out in a later part of the thread.
Moving on to the next parts:
Belleophron only at 500KMPH, V-Max, Kingu's 500KMPH, Lobo moving at 200KMPH-300KMPH, etc. Okay now we get to the real fun stuff and we all have seen it from various threads in other sites:
The numbers that have been consistently stated of how fast characters can go... and I'm here to tell you... that's a bunch of bullshit!
Like the above, I WILL go further into this with the actual debunking but I will point out the major misconceptions and issues that come with these:
Chief among them is how nonsensical the reasoning is... when if we use those speeds, it immediately falls apart the second we go back to Fate/Zero, well before Extra/Extella and FGO:
www.baka-tsuki.org
However, there was no need to feel anxious. It was true that a Servant’s dexterity was far above that of the V-Max in terms of maximum acceleration and maximum speed. However, this iron beast could maintain its speed as long as there was fuel left. If she was expecting a drawn-out pursuit, then the motorcycle would be very advantageous.
Servants, even back then, was capable of moving FASTER than those recorded speeds... the problem always is with the very last bit:
However, this iron beast could maintain its speed as long as there was fuel left. If she was expecting a drawn-out pursuit, then the motorcycle would be very advantageous
For long, drawn out pursuits, i.e. Mana problems
This also ignores when Artoria DOES put her all into the V-Max, she explicitly moves FASTER than 400KMPH and the Speedometer is explicitly broken:
www.baka-tsuki.org
The full-body platinum armor that she wore while fighting— she now intended not to put the armor on her own body, but to fuse it with the body of the V-MAX through intense psychokinesis. The concept was similar to the armor that protected beloved horses on the battlefield. With the sense of unity of riding as the mainstay, this time she must definitely turn this steel beast that could not speak into her own limbs…
Her prana continuously being released, the various important parts of the V-MAX that could ensure maximum speed of movement were completely covered and protected; the flexible and strong armor increased the capability of the motorcycle.
“—This is great!”
Though this usage was unexpected, Saber’s great skill made this difficult task possible. The entire structure of the V-MAX was wrapped in brand-new silver armor, beautiful and majestic to behold. This hard structure of the vehicle was in no way inferior to that monstrous, extraordinarily strong horsepower; this time, the mechanical lion had finally become a real magical beast. The exhaust pipe thundered.
Saber released the Invisible Air like an arrow directly in front of her, completely covering the body of the vehicle. Using the compression of the pneumatic umbrella to decrease air resistance to zero, the V-MAX was finally released from air resistance.
The needle of the speedometer was already damaged and could not be used. Saber’s prana had caused the rushing vehicle to transcend the laws of physics; already the speed was more than 400 kilometers per hour. The pressure released by the magecraft pressed the rear wheel firmly against the cement; even when making turns, Saber did not release the throttle and turned the body of the vehicle round by force.
And of course, this ignores the entire point of a Chariot Race as Iskandar puts it as he ISN'T running away from her, she was catching UP to him and he decided to battle it in that fashion.
This also makes even less sense when Iskandar actually does charges Artoria head on, fully realizing how powerful Excalibur is, he explicitly moves from 100 meters to right in her face in about a second or far less:
www.baka-tsuki.org
About a hundred meters away, Rider’s chariot also slowed to a stop. And it had reversed the direction that it was facing, too. All this time, it had moved straight forward to let Saber trail in its dust, but now it actually turned around; the eyes of the two divine bulls, as well as their master the King of Conquerors, were filled with a feeling of the joy of battle; he looked upon Saber with a captivating gaze.
is confidence was not hollow. Though he had said that it was a large gamble, Rider himself had full confidence in his victory.
“Light is at the other end of the world—conquer! Via Expugnatio: Distant Trampling Domination!”
The true name of that which had finally been released, the chariot drawn by divine bulls from which lightning suddenly burst forth. The majestic braying of the divine bulls under whose feet Berserker had been trampled in the first battle could never compare to this.
“—Let the wind come!”
Seeing her opponent rush towards her, Saber also hurriedly pulled out her sword under the protection of the air pressure.
Opening the vortex of the hurricane, a golden light shone forth as if to show the kingship of the knight; prana was continuously roiling.
“AAAALaLaLaLaLaie !!”
Accompanying Rider’s roar, the bulls stamped hard once on the asphalt ground; their cloven hooves rushed forward like raging billows. Waver, though overwhelmed by their majesty, nevertheless made an utmost effort to open his eyes wide, so as not to pass out again like the last time. At the fore was a very strong anti-city Noble Phantasm about to be released; in order to gain the initiative, Rider rushed as if his life depended on it, definitely unwilling to give up an opportunity to defeat Saber.
The King of Conquerors’ direct attack sent a shiver down Saber’s spine. By the rushing of the divine bulls, the hundred-meter distance had instantaneously been decreased to zero. In the blink of an eye, the might of Gordius Wheel manifested before her eyes.
If the hilt of her precious sword had still been in her hand, then she would definitely have been certain of victory; facing the golden radiance that Rider raised, there was only one thing that she could shout out, one true name.
“Ex—“
In the moment that the rushing incarnation of thunder was about to trample upon Saber’s small frame—
“Calibur!”
Golden lightning, as if radiating countless comets, made the night as bright as day.
“—!”
Waver’s gaze was drawn by this, dazzled by this, and he could not help but turn around—within the intense attack, he rationalized extremely calmly and realized one thing.
He had personally witnessed the light of Saber’s Noble Phantasm, and that meant… the result was that, before the Gordius Wheel had reached its final step, the King of Knights had taken the first step to initiate her attack.
So if we stuck by the 400KMPH deal, this shouldn't even work and further by that logic, Iskandar is slower than his Chariot? Because he explicitly avoided a virtual pointblank Excalibur right down to the last second:
www.baka-tsuki.org
Due to Excalibur's blow, the surface of the road had instantly been burned away; even the forest a little way away had been instantly blown to waste. The road was scarred, carved in the likeness of a single straight line. The molten asphalt gave off a revolting stench; it was extremely pungent. Waver felt as if his body was floating through the universe… no, carried by a strong man on his shoulders. Who was it that carried his young Master like a small luggage bag— it was not necessary to ask to know.
“Ah… we’ve failed.”
Rider said softly, as if remorseful from the heart. But considering the current situation, it did seem like too much of an understatement.
It appeared that Rider was not hurt, either. But the chariot in which he rode, as well as the two divine bulls, had all vanished without a trace. The Noble Phantasm ‘Gordius Wheel’ had borne the might of the ‘Sword of Promised Victory’ and so had, like Caster’s sea monster, vanished and left no trace, not even a speck of dust.
In the moment at which he had bordered the line of death, Rider, who had understood his failure, had quickly plucked Waver from the charioteer’s seat and narrowly escaped from under the attack of the anti-city Noble Phantasm. It could really be said that the two had cheated death. But the price was high enough. The flying chariot, which Rider had used as his main weapon all this time, had at the last minute gone up in smoke.
But this was not yet over—using his will to fight, Waver immediately chased away his frustration at failure. Even if the ‘Gordius Wheel’ had been taken away, the King of Conquerors still had one last real trump card.
And Excalibur isn't slow either, it's canonically one of the fastest Noble Phantasms in the series... and Iskandar was able to dodge well after the True Names call and the blast happened.
The speed further makes no sense when we later have Napoleon bring up that Servants can move 200 Klicks per Hour(just Kilometers) is like a breeze:
"But he said he can't keep it up because of the obstacles in his way?" And Napoleon doesn't like Fou because he thinks it's like his wife's pet dog, It's obvious that Napoleon is primarily screw around or it's due to the mana infused Ice and Snow can is screwing him up(And Mana infused anything is something Servants can be affected by, even just a bit).
And obviously, Belleophron's speed is not definitive in either Japanese or in the English Language as it uses SHIROU'S guess at the speed of which it was moving, not how fast it can truly go.
And besides, this even less makes sense when Fate/Zero, again, has Saber and Diarmuird fight near the speed of light at one point as just warming up:
www.baka-tsuki.org
Then—both parties stepped forward at the same time with spirits majestic as the rainbow in the sky, and the clashing sounds were clear as ripping cloth.
The two heroes who had not had a chance to battle these three days, tonight finally had the chance to face off; an intense battle would once again occur.
The situation of battle tonight—on one hand was a re-enactment of the showdown at the warehouses, but the battle of their crossing swords was even more intense than the first—fiercer, more direct, more final; it was a direct clash of strength on strength.
Between the two there was no need for mutual evaluation, nor the use of tricks to confuse the other. Lancer held only one lance right from the beginning; the blade of Saber’s sword was also completely revealed. Neither used means of plots and tricks. Even faster, even more imposing. After one made a move, the other would immediately retaliate at full strength with a blow that would counter the first. A simple contest of skill, blade of sword against point of lance, even more intense, even more white-hot.
The holy sword intertwined with the demonic lance, in direct opposition; the sparks flying were simply dazzling. The clash between the precious artifacts of legend, driven by strength and speed far beyond that of a human, passed the speed of sound, nearing the speed of light. Observation had long since lost meaning in this momentous battle. Those divine skills, pushed to the limits at the point of this fierce battle, were having a supreme contest between the two.
An unknown number of rounds had been fought; perhaps tens of rounds, perhaps hundreds of rounds. It was simply impossible to determine with a mortal eye. After the lance and sword of the two clashed, they finally separated, and moved away from each other.
Or in Fate/Stay Night, a gimped Cu(due to Kotomine's Command Spell) and EMIYA's final clash had a Hundred attacks thrown in a single second/instant:
Here, the final exchange of the fight, Cu's attacks grow faster and faster as EMIYA defends. Here, this final exchange has so far only lasted for an instant, but over 100 strikes have been thrown. EMIYA is disarmed a number of times as he marches towards Cu. Here, though EMIYA's speed is impressive, as Cu disengages, the speed he displayed is even more so. Here, Cu had disarmed EMIYA about 27 times, EMIYA managed to reproject one of his swords each time.
And well, I shouldn't need to go further than this because as stated before, Authors are not perfect. Akira Toriyama famously believed that in the Pre-Buu Arc, Goku being able to move 40 Tons was impressive... because he legit sucked at math. Video
here For some of these authors, they think 200-300KMPH, etc. is extremely impressive because again, it's easy to think something looks extremely impressive if never really bother to do research and yes, the opposite can equally occur if you go too far in the other direction(How Sho's ability is explained in Fire Force). The problem though is that it's a constant in the series that Servants waste mana going at large distance speeds and maintaining high levels of speed. Other times, it's basically for scenes and rule of cool(i.e. Cu taking awhile to catch up to a truck in Heaven's Feel 1 when canonically, he should have effortlessly caught up to it and Hassan didn't even need to hitch a ride either)
Ultimately, it's basically worthless to use the numbers because the story itself constantly(and I do mean constantly) throw these out the window as much as they use them. It doesn't help it precisely establishes why Servants can't move that fast consistently on long distances and again later on, I'm pretty much going to destroy it completely.
Lancelot's Guns Yeah, I heard this alot and no, it won't even have the dignity for me to really go all in for, just gonna point this out:
Billy's Gun can hurt Arjuna... but he was able to easily repel them despite catching Arjuna offguard. Billy's Gun is stronger than Lancelot's Knight of Owner...
and Knight of Owner is only higher than D if it's a Noble Phantasm he stole. Combined with how much Urobuchi has shown in interviews and otherwise in F/Z to pretty much go all over the place with guns, I wouldn't really use "Artoria was pressured by faster than sound bullets from a Noble Phantasm which can absolutely modify anything it touches to ridiculous degrees(Turning flares into heat seeking rockets)" to be a worthwhile rebuttal(especially as Excalibur was never unsheathed at that point)
Now, we will actually get to the main point of this:
The Moment of Truth(Yeah I know, it's basically jerking myself raw but I really don't know how to put this better)
Here's my ultimate debunking of these issues as well as bringing light to other things in the Nasuverse:
Did you know that Nikola Tesla manipulates the Electromagnetic Spectrum?
"What does that have to do with anything?" You might ask? Well that's the answer right there, go right back to what Gilgamesh stated about his Auto-Detectors:
“What was that lightning...?”
“The very thunderbolts are my Noble Phantasms. It appears they have intercepted some attack,” Gilgamesh replied offhandedly.
“An attack?” Tine could not keep from blurting out.
When she looked out the window, she saw that there were a number of discs floating around the top of the building. The Noble Phantasms continued to make their rounds, clad in miniature lightning, inscribing beautiful geometric designs against the vista.
“Auto Defensors. There was a chance that my friend might jestingly launch a surprise attack. I set them up as a precaution, but...”
And you'll probably say "So, they use Lightning as well, what makes them anymore real than Tesla's?" and the funniest thing is?
Everything.
Magecraft explicitly reproduces known phenomena to cast it's spells.
Melty Blood Act Cadenza PS2 Manual - Dictionary: Magecraft [Term], p.049
Magecraft [Term] A general term for the act of artificially reenacting mysteries and miracles.
Although each school has its individual differences, it is basically a mechanism for using the magical energy in the practitioner's body or the outside world, in order to reenact a predetermined phenomenon. The practitioner sends an order (command) to the foundation (system) controlled by their school, and a pre-made function (program) is executed. The "electrical current" needed to send that command and execute the program is magical energy.
Though sorcery may seem almighty, it is basically the bringing about of mysteries by means of equivalent exchange. Accordingly, sorceries powerful enough to interfere with Nature will obviously require enough magical energy (mana) to fill Nature just to execute them.
There is a limit to the sorceries that can be executed using an individual's magical energy alone.
And well, I don't really need to go further with this with the number of time we've seen Magecraft be used to create fire, lightning, snow, dimensions, put people to sleep, inverse cause and effect, etc. throughout the entire multitude of series in the Nasuverse.
And even Mordred even refers to her and Fran's various abilities(Mana Burst and her Blasting Tree) as Lightning:
This also completely fits with how Mordred primarily fits with it on Apocrypha and even against Tesla in London:
So obviously the point of this is: Servants, Mages, etc. use genuine Lightning in their attacks... and considering none of them are consistently speedblitzed and murdered by each other(including Roa who is a consistently known Lightning Magecraft user when he isn't super gimped), that means that characters can ultimately dodge Lightning and now, here's the real kicker:
Faster Than Light I have seen people take this out of context of how BB said something and use everything else as an outlier and that is this scene
here(video)
The problem is... that the very scene itself actually points out that there are TWO problems, the 1st is making the trip but the 2nd is Kiara's sexual allure which is compared to a Black Hole. But that's the key thing isn't it? BB never says the issue is that Servants cannot go FTL without dying on it's own, but they cannot make the trip and Kiara's Black Hole making that theoretically impossible... except Meltryllis already proved that wrong in the very event!
Not only does she go FTL, not only does she survive the experience but she's still capable of fighting and sticking around for the equivalent of either 1 or multiple weeks considering how major the time difference in SE.RA.PH. is and then does it again and only then does she ultimately start breaking apart.
The issue with BB's words being taken as gospel... is that there are other scenes in various series that also goes against a Servant would just burn up if they ever touch FTL:
Remember that Chaldeas is the absolute combination of Science and Magecraft working together to do what it is capable of... and considering what it's capable of, why wouldn't they have lasers that act like they do in real life and then some?
Yet Galahad actually dodges them virtually at the last second and has no problems dealing with them?
And Archimedes canonically sucks at Magecraft, he really does just positions mirrors and lets the Light that touches his Mana infused mirrors and sheer calculus do the rest... and no one deems him impossible to fight or manage either, even when they fight his Velber infused self in Fate/Extella.
So the point is that BB isn't wrong when it comes to Servant's Spirit Origins and Saint Graph can't handle FTL... the problem is that people use it as a complete catch all when the very onus of the scene points out that it's the DISTANCE and Kiara being a BLACK HOLE that would make going that fast ultimately an issue.
So to finally put the bowtie on this:
Servants are capable of going faster than Lightning, faster than Relativistic speeds, faster than even light... but they still would have to contend with Mana issues and Spirit Origin issues and have to balance it out all carefully so they don't end up rushing to a fight half-way or virtually dead.
I'm Editing this to add in future Addendums here(Through linking them to other posts). I'll be doing this because I want to make sure to add more videos and parts of the scene and there are limits to the videos I can add here so without further ado:
Addendum 1:
The Aeaean Spring Breeze Here
