TYPE-Moon/Nasuverse Feats/General Thread

[Xhominid The Apex]

That's rich coming from the guy that has admitted to not having read a single of Nasu's novels.

I can't believe you fell for the same shit I did saying that when @ChaosTheory123 literally pointed out that FGO? Is a fucking Nasu Light Novel masquerading as a Gacha Game!
And that's more rich from someone who literally does cliffnotes and nothing else meanwhile, I actually do my due diligence and actually go through multiple material to make up for that deficit.

Ciel's demonstrated feats and scaling put her above Kirei at his prime

No she hasn't? Unless you constantly pretend the shit Kotomine hasn't done to disprove that in either F/Z or F/SN somehow doesn't count(Which you constantly do), he VASTLY outclasses her even in the Remake(Ciel hasn't even shown any major physical prowress differences outside of the shit she did in the Original... which Kotomine > Ciel even then)

Kirei at his prime isn't even that much stronger than Kirei in FSN.

>Kirei without a Heart, dying was able to nearly kill Shirou dozens of times over despite having his Swords virtually function as armor that can even withstand Servant attacks amongst other things.
>Prime Kotomine is only THAT much stronger despite the differences according to Nasu is vast.
You really like doing this game, don't you?

He needs 10 Command Spells to defeat the weakest Servant in the 5th Holy Grail War

Wow, fighting Servants which are consistently stated to be >>> Superhumans and Mages, even the weakest ones requires pulling major shit out of your ass to win? I never thought that could be true...
Seriously, do you subscribe to the retarded idea that Tsukihime > Fate because the Remake "looks more impressive"?

He can only defeat Servants that don't specialize in hand to hand combat like Assassins and Casters

...That really doesn't help your point the way you think it does...
Later material, especially FGO(surprise, surprise) explicitly points out that NO Human can defeat an actual recognized Hero Servant, the absolute best they can do is either Casters(And that still requires a hell of alot) or those that aren't fighters(Like most Assassins and Casters). There's a reason Nasu has the difference of being able to fight Servants at all(Like Aoko, Kouma and probably Ahika if the translation in Ushiwakamaru's story mode isn't wrong there can do) and those who can only defend against them(The Shikis, Ciel) because it's a HUGE gulf.

needing good conditions like pride and suitability to defeat Servants that do specialize in H2H combat. His best objective feat is being compared to a basic ass Dead Apostle in combat ability.

>Basic Dead Apostle
>The Remake explicitly point out that there are multiple classes of Dead Apostles from Rank 1 to Rank 8-9
You realize that this can be used against your points right? What makes you think Prime Kotomine at his best is ONLY at the level of a Rank 1 Dead Apostle?

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Shinji's Medusa? The same one that is so weak Zouken was confident Hassan could easily defeat? Meanwhile Bazett trades blows with Leysritt, who has a rank of strength matching that of Sakura's Medusa.

Still utterly beyond the weakest version of Shirou and can still kill him in the Bad Ends... just like Cursed Arm Hassan can.
And last I checked, Bazett didn't "Trade Blows" with Leysritt, the fuck you talking about?
Bazett Fraga McRemitz vs Leysritt

Leysritt's strength matches or even surpasses that of a Servant's (here and here).

Specifically?

Q: What's Leysritt's arm-wrestling rank in the world of Fate?

A: Leysritt's arm-wrestling... is about an even match with Rider using Monstrous Strength? Rank value is about B-.

Here, Bazett dodges Leysritt's strike. Here, Bazett and Leysritt exchange blows. Leysritt is entirely reliant on brute force, a single direct strike from her would be fatal to Bazett (every bone in Bazett's body would shatter). Here, while Bazett was parrying Leysritt's attacks she landed 7 of her own on Leysritt's body. Leysritt endures Bazett's strikes to Bazett's confusion.

Yep, you literally picked out one sentence despite the rest of the scene showing Bazett would DIE if she took a head on attack by Lesyritt...
Hell, Lesyritt literally gets his plenty of times by Bazett and she's confused on why she isn't even slowing down.
Parrying =/= taking attacks dead on, fucking Kojirou parried attacks from Heracles, Artoria and Cu, that doesn't mean he's on their level in DC.
So yeah, Sakura Medusa >>>> Shinji Medusa >>> Fate Route Shirou and Bazett(Because you also didn't get Medusa is still far faster than Lesyritt, has far better reactions, far better reach, etc. etc.)

His usage of Command Spells is explicitly stated by Nasu to be a trump card.

He wouldn't even need them GaRbS, I literally brought up what Nasu stated, actually read it.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Ciel’s feats and scaling put her above Kirei at his prime.

Where do her feats do this? Accolades alone are where Tsukihime even saves itself. It’s utterly fucked without them.

Kirei at his prime isn't even that much stronger than Kirei in FSN.

Kirei in his prime is entirely reliant on his accolades too. His feats suck. Literally minutes before he died is where his most powerful shit comes from. Which shits on most of my general familiarity with Ciel, at least OG that isn’t Powered.

He needs 10 Command Spells to defeat the weakest Servant in the 5th Holy Grail War, Cursed Arm Hassan.

Did he have that many in the Hassan fight? Could have sworn he burnt his stock grafting EMIYA’s arm to Shirou? Regardless, not too relevant. CA Hassan’s stats are not that poor even though he’s the war’s weakest link. That B in strength is represented by his clashes, just that he comes out the loser despite the raw stats because it’s just that little more lesser.

He can only defeat Servants that don't specialize in hand to hand combat like Assassins and Casters, needing good conditions like pride and suitability to defeat Servants that do specialize in H2H combat.
His best objective feat is being compared to a basic ass Dead Apostle in combat ability.

First, that’s an accolode. Learn the actual terms and how to use them. Second, this is an outright lie when directly above you already acknowledged his ability to kill hth Servants. Raw stats are what matter in this context, and that’s a favorable boost even circa 2010 given the crop that existed for sake of discussion.

Ciel has killed 4 Dead Apostle Ancestors. Ancestors are unfathomably stronger than basic ass Dead Apostles. DA's as a whole are stronger in Tsukihime than in Fate due to the Human Order being stronger in Fate worlds.

Which means nothing to me without establishing Servant vs DAA. Come on, this shit is foundational to connect the dots. Don’t just draw your own image on a blank page, elaborate in full.

Ancestors are now even stronger in the lore because they have Idea Blood, their special superpower they get from being an Ancestor, whereas Ancestors in old Tsukihime had mostly random shit from abilities they cobbled together on their own and sometimes a Reality Marble that wasn't even guaranteed to be good in battle.
Rank VIII Dead Apostles, the Successors of the Dead Apostle Ancestors (Rank IX) are stronger than True Ancestors.

Which is nice fluff, elaborate for why it means anything cross series

Ciel has the strongest magecraft humanity has, equal in Mystery to Excalibur, a giant beam of light dozens of kilometers in size.
Can even defeat a rampaging Arcueid.

Pretty consistent with the portrayal of Powered Ciel and just Excalibur being that potent. Doesn’t bring anything new to the discussion.

Remake Ciel has mastered every weapon, has been trained by a DAA, has all of Roa’s wacky shit and seems more frequent to bring it out, has way more church gear than before and the numerous Idea Bloods of the 3 Ancestors she has killed, which can give even Ancestors pause, etc

This is about as worth a shit as specifying Super Saiyan vs Base Goku in Dragon Ball Z when the best feats he scales to in Namek were performed by base Freeza nuking Vegeta. I appreciate the fluff from a lore standpoint, but who cares respective to this hobby

Not really, even OG Ciel was stated to be too strong for a group of Sion, Tohno Shiki and Akiha to defeat. Sion herself being stated to have physical prowess that rivals or surpasses that of a Dead Apostle, which already puts her on the same level of Kirei at his prime.

No, it doesn’t (how naughty, limiting it by a narrative statement with no clear defined upper bound to treat his and Sion as the same ) given his prime can defeat Assassins and Casters circa 2010 (this is proper use of limiting a statement by time it was released given the sheer volume of Casters and Assassins that exist now that contradict the notion). Statement further implied it was not lack of power limiting success against stronger classes, so his Fangs could probably reach them to in a “tank this standing still battle”.

Shinji's Medusa? The same one that is so weak Zouken was confident Hassan could easily defeat? Meanwhile Bazett trades blows with Leysritt, who has a rank of strength matching that of Sakura's Medusa.

Forgive him, he’s not savy on FSN feats

You, however, read the VN, right? So the continued bad faith is no surprise when you neglect mentioning the fact he tanks numerous attacks from Angra Mainyu possessed Sakura that were already potent enough to no diff Cu’s Great Rune Barrier that can tank “great” NP (which, given average is B rank, would denote a rank of A for “great” at a minimum). Also the whole not gibbed by Merodach in Fate by Gilgamesh per expectations due to his sword armor.

 

[GaRbS]

I can't believe you fell for the same shit I did saying that when @ChaosTheory123 literally pointed out that FGO? Is a fucking Nasu Light Novel masquerading as a Gacha Game!

I can't believe you talk about FGO while not even being able to differentiate between a light novel and a visual novel. FGO is the visual novel that is the least written by Nasu, that is one of the exceptions that you actually seem to consume.

>Kirei without a Heart, dying was able to nearly kill Shirou dozens of times over despite having his Swords virtually function as armor that can even withstand Servant attacks amongst other things.

Shirou wasn't nearly killed dozens of times by Kirei at all. Kirei's attacks also just ignored his body of swords and directly damaged his innards.

Seriously, do you subscribe to the retarded idea that Tsukihime > Fate because the Remake "looks more impressive"?

I do not have to suscribe to that idea to recognize the fact that fucking Cursed Arm Hassan is no match for True Ancestors and Divine Spirits, unlike Dead Apostle Ancestors.

...That really doesn't help your point the way you think it does...
Later material, especially FGO(surprise, surprise) explicitly points out that NO Human can defeat an actual recognized Hero Servant, the absolute best they can do is either Casters(And that still requires a hell of alot) or those that aren't fighters(Like most Assassins and Casters). There's a reason Nasu has the difference of being able to fight Servants at all(Like Aoko, Kouma and probably Ahika if the translation in Ushiwakamaru's story mode isn't wrong there can do) and those who can only defend against them(The Shikis, Ciel) because it's a HUGE gulf.

Wodime literally beats a Servant in FGO outside of the Atlantic Lostbelt.
Zouken in his prime is stated to be able to defeat a Servant with good conditions, he also killed Kojiro in HF.
Touko is said to be able to defeat Faker in Cases of Lord El-Melloi II.

>Basic Dead Apostle
>The Remake explicitly point out that there are multiple classes of Dead Apostles from Rank 1 to Rank 8-9
You realize that this can be used against your points right? What makes you think Prime Kotomine at his best is ONLY at the level of a Rank 1 Dead Apostle?

I never said Rank I Dead Apostle, that doesn't even exist. Vampires are not even Dead Apostles until Rank 6. And we know it's that rank because in Fate worlds the invidiuals that would be the Dead Apostle Ancestors in Tsukihime worlds only reach to be Rank VII Dead Apostles, below even the Successors.

He wouldn't even need them GaRbS, I literally brought up what Nasu stated, actually read it.

I did read it. Nasu was not counting magecraft or weapons. There is no proof that Kirei without Command Spells would be able to defeat Bazett if she had access to runes and Fragarach.

Did he have that many in the Hassan fight?

That's not what I'm saying. I'm referencing to the WoG that Nasu said Kirei would need 10 Command Spells to defeat Cursed Arm Hassan, which he did not have due to using them up in his operation of Sakura's worms.

You, however, read the VN, right? So the continued bad faith is no surprise when you neglect mentioning the fact he tanks numerous attacks from Angra Mainyu possessed Sakura that were already potent enough to no diff Cu’s Great Rune Barrier that can tank “great” NP (which, given average is B rank, would denote a rank of A for “great” at a

Shirou did no such thing, Sakura was holding back the Shadow to not kill Shirou, who just dodged the attacks. Not to mention the Shadow specializes in absorbing magical energy due to Sakura's attribute, so it's more effective against something like a barrier than say a human body.

minimum). Also the whole not gibbed by Merodach in Fate by Gilgamesh per expectations due to his sword armor.

Shirou was not covered in swords at the time of being hit by Merodach, and he only survived due to Avalon.

Which is nice fluff, elaborate for why it means anything cross series

An Elemental like Yu Meiren in FGO who is compared to True Ancestors is strong enough to fight multiple Servants at once. Ciel has killed 3 beings stronger than beings stronger than True Ancestors.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Forgive him, he’s not savy on FSN feats

You, however, read the VN, right? So the continued bad faith is no surprise when you neglect mentioning the fact he tanks numerous attacks from Angra Mainyu possessed Sakura that were already potent enough to no diff Cu’s Great Rune Barrier that can tank “great” NP (which, given average is B rank, would denote a rank of A for “great” at a minimum). Also the whole not gibbed by Merodach in Fate by Gilgamesh per expectations due to his sword armor.

I was more talking about the feat with Fate Shirou getting attacked by Shinji Medusa and due to his healing, she couldn't bypass it without going further and just kicking him out the window, Nasu states if that was Sakura Medusa, Shirou would have been torn in half by that lazy kick.
I know about Shirou's best durability feat in HF, I was talking about his best durability feat from his weakest version(Before the Merodach hit)

I can't believe you talk about FGO while not even being able to differentiate between a light novel and a visual novel. FGO is the visual novel that is the least written by Nasu, that is one of the exceptions that you actually seem to consume.

...Are you REALLY trying to own me like this? Because this is honestly the most pathetic own I've seen yet from you...

Shirou wasn't nearly killed dozens of times by Kirei at all. Kirei's attacks also just ignored his body of swords and directly damaged his innards.

That's a DC feat... I know, I got that wrong myself when it came to Shizuki vs. The Elemental Spirit in Mahoyo.

I do not have to suscribe to that idea to recognize the fact that fucking Cursed Arm Hassan is no match for True Ancestors and Divine Spirits, unlike Dead Apostle Ancestors.

...Bro, that's comparing their Idea Blood to Authorities which are compared to a TA's Event Storage...
None of those equal power alone, you fucking dumbass. If that was the case, then Vlov's pathetic ass would be even stronger than 20% Arcueid, Ciel and Shiki Tohno by leagues rather than being weaker than Rank VIII Apostles and higher.

Wodime literally beats a Servant in FGO outside of the Atlantic Lostbelt.
Zouken in his prime is stated to be able to defeat a Servant with good conditions, he also killed Kojiro in HF.
Touko is said to be able to defeat Faker in Cases of Lord El-Melloi II.

Wow, that helps your point when there is explicit conditions for all 3...
1. Kirschtaria Wodime being in the Olympus Lostbelt which basically enhances his Animus Animusphere to be on actual Planetary Destruction levels and him being tied to the Tree of Emptiness amps the rest of his stats to ludicrous degrees.

2. Prime Zouken being one of the strongest Mages to ever exist and there's nothing stating he actually killed Kojirou, that's just a meme.

3. Faker isn't even all that strong and far, far weaker than Iskandar. Did you forget that old Priest did a number of Faker in Case Files before she killed him? Touko herself is one of the premier Mages in the series on top of that, clowning virtually everyone she comes across unless blindsided.

I never said Rank I Dead Apostle, that doesn't even exist. Vampires are not even Dead Apostles until Rank 6. And we know it's that rank because in Fate worlds the invidiuals that would be the Dead Apostle Ancestors in Tsukihime worlds only reach to be Rank VII Dead Apostles, below even the Successors.

So if we go with what you are saying, Prime Kotomine would at the very least be above Dead Apostle Noel? Whose a Rank VI...
Don't make excuses, you keep digging yourself deeper now(Because last time I checked, the Fate Multiverse only has it to where Dead Apostle Ancestors don't exist in a group formation, not that Dead Apostles are ranked differently).

I did read it. Nasu was not counting magecraft or weapons. There is no proof that Kirei without Command Spells would be able to defeat Bazett if she had access to runes and Fragarach.

...The hell is her Runes gonna do and what the hell is Fragrach gonna do? Rin literally is supposed to defeat Kotomine due to her potential and her potential too and his years of Mage Hunting would still have him win more times than not. What exactly makes Bazett different?

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

If this is your idea of having your Discord fuckbuddies get some laughs because "I don't suck Nasu's cock like you believe I did" in some vain attempt to discredit me and basically ignore everyone else...
That still makes you far more pathetic than you are making me out to be.

 

[Paxton]

 

[GaRbS]

Wow, that helps your point when there is explicit conditions for all 3...
1. Kirschtaria Wodime being in the Olympus Lostbelt which basically enhances his Animus Animusphere to be on actual Planetary Destruction levels and him being tied to the Tree of Emptiness amps the rest of his stats to ludicrous degrees.

Dude, I literally said that Wodime beat a Servant OUTSIDE the Atlantic Lostbelt. Also, Wodime wasn't even connected to the Fantasy Tree at all, much less it amping his stats.

2. Prime Zouken being one of the strongest Mages to ever exist

No, he's not. He's a Pride level magus, below the ranks of Brand and Grand.

3. Faker isn't even all that strong and far, far weaker than Iskandar.

Still stronger than Cursed Arm Hassan, who is the strongest Servant we know for a fact Kirei at his prime can beat.

So if we go with what you are saying, Prime Kotomine would at the very least be above Dead Apostle Noel? Whose a Rank VI...

No, because the Dead Apostles in Fate/Zero are weaker than in Tsukihime. Also Noel's Mystic Eyes would stomp Kirei anyway.

 

[Type-Rey]

Holly mother of f..

The amount of false information on here.

Just several examples :

The quote about Rank Viii being> TAs is something that i've never seen in my playthrough or in any translated materials that are trustworthy.

Touko specifically couldn't beat Faker even with help.

Calvaria Star can't defeat Arcueid. It can damage her but not defeat her.

And the rest of Garb's bullshit statements is based on information he doesn't have about the prowess of previous DAAs cause there's hardly info to go around and because of that you can't actually quantify shit for the new versions based on a comparison between the two. Most you can say is "same ballpark +" which doesn't mean shit for this hobby.

Also, i couldn't help but notice the ammount of guests that we got here which tells me everything i need to know about this shit.
This ain't a good faith debate . It never was.

I'm not gonna have the sludge in the Arguments forum transfered here.

@Masterblack06 @Ral @Aurelian please ban Garbs from this thread as he and his friends from SB are trying to stir shit up in this thread after doing the same shit into the Circus thread.

 

[GaRbS]

The quote about Rank Viii being> TAs is something that i've never seen in my playthrough or in any translated materials that are trustworthy.

-- すべて使えばⅧ階梯―――真祖すら寄せ付けない、祖に手が届く死徒の頂点にまで上り詰める。

If you use them all, you can reach Rank VIII ――― the pinnacle that a dead apostle can reach, beyond even True Ancestors.

...The hell is her Runes gonna do and what the hell is Fragrach gonna do?

Bazett can use runes to enhance herself and her clothes, why would you think that's not an advantage in a fight? And Fragarach even without The Answerer function is still a D or C rank Noble Phantasm, which is stated to be a bother for even Cu Chulainn if he cannot retaliate with his own NP.

 

[Type-Rey]

Also @Xhominid the Fool if you can't put your crap to bed with SB here, i'm gonna request you get thread banned too.

Enough of this shit.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

Also @Xhominid the Fool if you can't put your crap to bed with SB here, i'm gonna request you get thread banned too.

Enough of this shit.

I haven't even done any...

Fine.

@Masterblack06 @Darth Nihilus @Aurelian I'm cashing in on that favor
Get GaRbS out my fucking thead.

 

[GaRbS]

Calvaria Star can't defeat Arcueid. It can damage her but not defeat her.

I never claimed that Calvaria Star specifically can defeat Arcueid, I said Ciel in general can.

 

[Xhominid The Apex]

@ral
We got someone literally trying to cause shit being here, can you threadban them please?

 

[Type-Rey]

Oh, now he answers, how convenient.

No , turd brain, she can't defeat Arcueid, it's made abundantly clear that she cannot.

Also, that quote doesn't tell me everything, Give me the whole context.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

Bazett can use runes to enhance herself and her clothes, why would you think that's not an advantage in a fight? And Fragarach even without The Answerer function is still a D or C rank Noble Phantasm, which is stated to be a bother for even Cu Chulainn if he cannot retaliate with his own NP.

The thing Shirou in base endured due to a game of Rock Paper Scissors is the thing you want to pivot around? It just makes Shirou look impressive relative to Cu, not Bazett.

And who cares about the runes, clearly wasn’t enough to sniff beyond Leysritt

 

[ChaosTheory123]

@Masterblack06 @Ral @Aurelian please ban Garbs from this thread as he and his friends from SB are trying to stir shit up in this thread after doing the same shit into the Circus thread.

I dunno, he’s kind of a fun verbal punching bag

He runs away a bunch and hides behind his friends lurking under the guise of “isn’t this funny guys?”

Then again, punching down IS distasteful

 

[GaRbS]

Also, that quote doesn't tell me everything, Give me the whole context.

-- 通常、Ⅳ階梯の死徒であれば代行者を圧倒し、
In general, a Rank IV Dead Apostle can handily defeat an Executor.

-- その上のⅤ階梯になれば、代行者が束になろうとものともしない呪いを帯びるという。
Going even further by becoming a Rank V would be taking on a curse such that Executors, even acting together, would be of little account.

-- この説が正しければ、あと二本、ないし三本で彼女は心身共に自由になれる。
If so, then either two or three additional shots would set her free, both in mind and in body.

すべて使えばⅧ階梯―――真祖すら寄せ付けない、祖に手が届く死徒の頂点にまで上り詰める。

If she used all of them, she would reach Rank VIII ――― the pinnacle that a dead apostle can reach, beyond even True Ancestors.

 

[Type-Rey]

Not here.
I'm not gonna have the work i and others i've put into this thread get shat on by some dude who is not even a real member of this forum and his friends.

 

[ChaosTheory123]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm referencing to the WoG that Nasu said Kirei would need 10 Command Spells to defeat Cursed Arm Hassan, which he did not have due to using them up in his operation of Sakura's worms.

True, do recall that quote now. Must be a smaller boost than I thought given he was still physically matching Hassan without them. Unable to kill probably came down to the lack of sufficient mystery from the Keys.

Shirou did no such thing, Sakura was holding back the Shadow to not kill Shirou, who just dodged the attacks.

Do you get thrills from lying? Sakura had no conscious control over the efforts of Angra Mainyu trying to keep Rule Breaker away. Only the first could be argued in that fashion by Sakura, and even that’s dubious as Shirou doubts it being her intent IIRC (she tried using it as evidence she was a shit person). Shirou also never dodged those attacks. The movie makes that further clear in abundance if the impact visuals and SFX were too subtle for you.

Not to mention the Shadow specializes in absorbing magical energy due to Sakura's attribute, so it's more effective against something like a barrier than say a human body.

Not a human body, was a suit of armor innards deep forged of UBW. By this logic it should have eaten through the reinforcements magic too and left him fucked after the first impact.

Shirou was not covered in swords at the time of being hit by Merodach, and he only survived due to Avalon.

You’re making it worse for yourself. Gil was expecting that Shirou would essentially be red mist and not just partially bisected (he praised his durability in surprise), and you’re trying to claim his sword reinforcement hadn’t even manifested yet.

An Elemental like Yu Meiren in FGO who is compared to True Ancestors is strong enough to fight multiple Servants at once. Ciel has killed 3 beings stronger than beings stronger than True Ancestors.

We’re getting somewhere, but I have to ask through what means.

If your answer is the killsat or the BB replica she had on hand in OG? Why is this impressive given what we know about a power peer to Excalibur and something we know could have sealed Arc in the OG Tsukihime too?

Also, are you multi quoting? Or inserting replies post hoc? Almost missed your response because I got not notification.