To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - Touma's Boogaloo Edition

[Paxton]

From NT 10
...
An external power caused a vertical tear.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

This black world was the place not even Magic God Othinus had been able to destroy.
...

The same Hidden World quickly became collateral in Aleister house invasion scheme.

Poor Magic Gods.

They were just relaxing in their private dimension and then some British man breaks into their home

 

[Irradiance]

Even ignoring the fact that Aleister couldn't kill the nerfed MGs with his Big Bang Bomb x10 (needing the A.A.A. or Aiwass to do so)

Yeah, it's not really said that Aleister couldn't do that. That technique could be amongst the things he prepared to be used against full power MGs. It's also possible that the Magic Gods, being master grade magicians themselves, have ways to counter it.

It's like with all the spells that are hax in Index. It's generally not good to assume that the ability to fight someone with such a spell, implies resistance. Magicians are intellectuals that analyze and counter.

LPsAD Fiamma has both a star busting statement by the narration

I don't believe it has? I think the statement you're thinking of has since been revised by Js06 to say "Planet" instead. Japanese like to use a term that can mean either.

and should logically scale above Archangels who have multiple spells at the level of Astro in Hand.

While scaling above regular Angel stuff makes sense, I have doubts that Astro in Hand would be included. It's one of those spells that stand out more "powerful" than anything they have. Like, compare it to the Sweep, which only burns down 1/3rd of the planet IIRC.

While technically powerful and useable for combat, Astro in Hand is a spell that canonically is used more for environmental modification than for combat. So I wouldn't consider it as part of combat power scaling unless a greater reason is given.

Hell, nerfed MGs should be stronger than full power Phase beings, such as Vishnu and the like, when Marian summoned them in NT10, who were going to destroy the world if not for the barrier put in place by her.

I'm not sure what makes you assume that nerfed MGs should be stronger than full-on gods? For full power MGs I would understand, as they control all phases, but for the nerfed ones that have lost all phase manipulation ability? I see no reason for that.

Heck, Marian created that combat method exactly on the assumption that she would fight a magic god.

 

[Cryso Agori]

I'm not sure what makes you assume that nerfed MGs should be stronger than full-on gods? For full power MGs I would understand, as they control all phases, but for the nerfed ones that have lost all phase manipulation ability? I see no reason for that.

Heck, Marian created that combat method exactly on the assumption that she would fight a magic god.

Nerfed MGs are said to have enough power to destroy the world but not recreate it.

 

[Paxton]

Yeah, it's not really said that Aleister couldn't do that. That technique could be amongst the things he prepared to be used against full power MGs. It's also possible that the Magic Gods, being master grade magicians themselves, have ways to counter it.

It's like with all the spells that are hax in Index. It's generally not good to assume that the ability to fight someone with such a spell, implies resistance. Magicians are intellectuals that analyze and counter.


I don't believe it has? I think the statement you're thinking of has since been revised by Js06 to say "Planet" instead. Japanese like to use a term that can mean either.


While scaling above regular Angel stuff makes sense, I have doubts that Astro in Hand would be included. It's one of those spells that stand out more "powerful" than anything they have. Like, compare it to the Sweep, which only burns down 1/3rd of the planet IIRC.

While technically powerful and useable for combat, Astro in Hand is a spell that canonically is used more for environmental modification than for combat. So I wouldn't consider it as part of combat power scaling unless a greater reason is given.


I'm not sure what makes you assume that nerfed MGs should be stronger than full-on gods? For full power MGs I would understand, as they control all phases, but for the nerfed ones that have lost all phase manipulation ability? I see no reason for that.

Heck, Marian created that combat method exactly on the assumption that she would fight a magic god.

I mean, I wasn't referring to Astro in Hand specifically, just the other spells they were said to have at that level.

It's admittedly a bit of a reach but it is very explicit that Fiamma scales above the Archangels in their entirety. That was the whole point of the power-up.
I don't really see why Astro in Hand would be excluded.

Do note that Gabriel was also said to be able to turn half the planet into ash, knock the planet out of the solar system's orbit, and its self-destruction (iirc) was compared to a planet exploding.
Which admittedly isn't above planet level, but still.

 

[Top59]

I know it's controversial but after Misha was defeated, when Fiamma started his ritual in which he mentioned that he needed to accommodate the 4 elements in the world, stars began to appear in the sky.

And I understand that it wasn't the heaven phase because that was after when the sky turned gold.



I'm too lazy to look for the LN quote, but I mean this scene^

 

[Paxton]

Do you mean that Fiamma himself was doing that in a similar vein to how Astro in Hand works?

 

[Top59]

Do you mean that Fiamma himself was doing that in a similar vein to how Astro in Hand works?

at least his ritual did, a ritual he himself mentions would give him power.

elements carries the leading edge of its type of power, but at the same time, using one element has a broader effect on the three other elements. That is why all large-scale ceremonies except practical battle ones use one of each symbolic weapon as opposed to just the symbolic weapon of the primary element. That is true even in fire ceremonies. In other words, my fire has always held the requirements needed to control all four elements. By controlling all four, I should gain a vast amount of power. …But that is all if the distortion in the lineup of the world’s elements did not exist.”

Fiamma continued speaking.

“Proper power cannot be perfectly used except for in a proper world.”

Something invisible exploded out from Fiamma.

It was killer intent.

The pressure was so overwhelming that Kamijou felt a sensation on his skin like it was being torn.

“…”

But that was no reason to step back.

The man before his eyes was holding Index’s remote control spiritual item. To destroy it, he had to crush the source of that pressure.

Kamijou naturally clenched his right fist.

His focus was naturally drawn toward Fiamma’s right shoulder.

It wriggled.

The Third Arm wriggled.

Something vast resided within that power that was supposed to be suffering as it disintegrated.

“Now I will show you what proper power is.”

And with that his power increased, much later the golden sky appeared, which was the phase that obscured the stars.

After all, my arm possesses the power to save the entire world. People may refer to that as being The One Above God, but… I do not particularly care about that. I do not intend to match or exceed him. I only intend to gather all the power I have now and to save the world with it.”

All the parts were absorbed into the Third Arm stretching from Fiamma of the Right’s right shoulder.

He was in anguish.

Normally, his face did not lose its composure, but his eyebrows twisted in displeasure just slightly.

The flesh and blood that had been put together was perfect, but the power of Imagine Breaker treated Fiamma of the Right as a special case and started to eat away at his very core.

However, it was worth mentioning that he did not immediately lose his power.

In other words, the power sleeping within Fiamma was constantly creating such great power that Imagine Breaker’s effects were not enough to negate it.

Fiamma of the Right’s body shook.

Not only his heart constricted and retracted. Centered around his Third Arm, his entire body did as well. It was a reaction to the power stored at his center travelling to his right arm of flesh and blood.

A great change occurred as if to prove that the power to change the world had descended.

However, this change was not in Fiamma’s body.

It was in the planet that received him.

The heavens greatly opened up.

That clear otherworldly and artificially arranged night sky of red, blue, yellow, and green split open. Like an old stocking ripping, large cracks appeared in places and they spread soundlessly.

On the other side was a golden light.

It was just like a legend. It was just like the world seen in religious art. That lowering curtain of light looked like a scene of the heavens and the earth being connected.

 

[Paxton]

Now that I think about it, isn't that outright proof that the Holy Right (at least in LPsAD) can replicate Curtana?

Ignoring that, you know, the Holy Right explicitly draws from the same source as Curtana (Michael), but has greater priority, and the numerous statements of it not needing to use physical force to defeat an opponent.

Given that he literally cuts open a portal/brings another Phase/dimension into the universe, after all.

 

[Astaro]

Latest Imaginary Fest event will be Christmas themed

 

[Astaro]

More Saten and Kongou is alway great but I feel like this would have been a great opportunity to adapt GT1 - GT2 which actually took place around Christmas

Give us Maidono Hoshimi

Not to mention even Anna Sprengel or even St. Germain being introduced

 

[Cryso Agori]

Now that I think about it, isn't that outright proof that the Holy Right (at least in LPsAD) can replicate Curtana?

Ignoring that, you know, the Holy Right explicitly draws from the same source as Curtana (Michael), but has greater priority, and the numerous statements of it not needing to use physical force to defeat an opponent.

Given that he literally cuts open a portal/brings another Phase/dimension into the universe, after all.

But that seems to require a ritual, on the other hand all you got to do is swing Curtana around to do a similar thing.

 

[Paxton]

But that seems to require a ritual, on the other hand all you got to do is swing Curtana around to do a similar thing.

Yeah, that's fair.
That's why I brought up the other stuff said about the Holy Right.

 

[Paxton]

That reminds me, would it make sense to scale LPsAD Fiamma above full power Archangels (distorting the universe with their presence and all that) or just their weaker instances?

 

[Paxton]

I'm not too sure if this means anything (for now), but does anyone have the quote that says that the Holy Grail and the Spear of Longinus cannot be replicated via modern materials using Idol Theory?

 

[Top59]

That reminds me, would it make sense to scale LPsAD Fiamma above full power Archangels (distorting the universe with their presence and all that) or just their weaker instances?

I think not, Fiamma was defeated before reaching his peak by IT.

In any case, until an Archangel comes out without any limitations, it would be impossible to say on what scale.

But probably scaling from Astro Hand and even assuming that's not accepted, scaling from Gabriel's explosion that would take Earth out of Solar System would be a feat of three digit Zettaton to one digit Yottaton which would be Planet+ to near large planet.

I remember that here the feats of self-destruction when they are not due to a Netero bomb scaled to stronger characters, before the Bleach upgrade I remember that the self-destruction of Yamamoto's bankai scaled to Ichibei and other characters.


---------

How strong is Cthulhu?
In the novel they say it's a galactic horror and stuff like that but nothing concrete.

In truth, what had happened was quite simple. That sleeping evil god was even known as
a galactic horror, so the Amakusas had had no hope of defeating it in a straight fight. In
fact, it may have been accurate to say its default settings were those of a monster anyone
would lose equally to.

 

[Mr.OMG]

I think not, Fiamma was defeated before reaching his peak by IT.

In any case, until an Archangel comes out without any limitations, it would be impossible to say on what scale.

But probably scaling from Astro Hand and even assuming that's not accepted, scaling from Gabriel's explosion that would take Earth out of Solar System would be a feat of three digit Zettaton to one digit Yottaton which would be Planet+ to near large planet.

I remember that here the feats of self-destruction when they are not due to a Netero bomb scaled to stronger characters, before the Bleach upgrade I remember that the self-destruction of Yamamoto's bankai scaled to Ichibei and other characters.


---------

How strong is Cthulhu?
In the novel they say it's a galactic horror and stuff like that but nothing concrete.

It also said that they were a threat to the universe or something like that. And if Cthulhu is summoned, humanity may die.

 

[Top59]

Endymion pillars were preventing the space elevator from leaving the planet, after Accelerator, Misaka and Styil destroyed the city and the elevator started shaking, is that scalable for them?

For Accelerator it's not relevant but for Misaka and Styil it might be.

And if Cthulhu is summoned, humanity may die.

Would it have planetary mind control or would it be a large scale release of energy?

 

[Mr.OMG]

Endymion pillars were preventing the space elevator from leaving the planet, after Accelerator, Misaka and Styil destroyed the city and the elevator started shaking, is that scalable for them?

For Accelerator it's not relevant but for Misaka and Styil it might be.




Would it have planetary mind control or would it be a large scale release of energy?

The incident was moving out of Itsuwa and the others' reach. Unless the mastermind was simply trying to collect rare books, this would transform into an indescribably major incident. That grimoire had been created from a crucible of realistic methods to create the horrors that were meant to remain in the realm of fiction.

The single incident surrounding the free pass was over.

However, it had led to another much greater incident. And if great damage was done, the Amakusas could possibly be blamed.

Also, they could not ignore this if a ceremony was being prepared which could harm an unknown number of people. After all, the grimoire that had been partially leaked out was said to allow one to almost perfectly recreate the things spoken of in the Cthulhu mythos. These phenomena could be described as horror on a universal scale, so an entire city or country could be destroyed if they were released into the world.

"Honestly, we can only pray this is from a new era that has branched off. If it's from the original era, humans have no chance of winning," said Tatemiya in annoyance within the city library.

The direct combat was over, so they were performing first aid. They had not quite set up a field hospital, but they had created an odd space in which collapsible camping goods were spread out.

Itsuwa was unharmed, so she immediately used recovery magic to heal Tsushima's hand.

 

[Paxton]

I think not, Fiamma was defeated before reaching his peak by IT.

In any case, until an Archangel comes out without any limitations, it would be impossible to say on what scale.

But probably scaling from Astro Hand and even assuming that's not accepted, scaling from Gabriel's explosion that would take Earth out of Solar System would be a feat of three digit Zettaton to one digit Yottaton which would be Planet+ to near large planet.

I remember that here the feats of self-destruction when they are not due to a Netero bomb scaled to stronger characters, before the Bleach upgrade I remember that the self-destruction of Yamamoto's bankai scaled to Ichibei and other characters.


---------

How strong is Cthulhu?
In the novel they say it's a galactic horror and stuff like that but nothing concrete.

I thought Fiamma already reached his peak?

And didn't Mathers do just that? He summoned Uriel(?) who was distorting the world with its presence before Aleister shortly banished it back to the Heaven Phase.

 

[Mr.OMG]

Cool

「御便堕し」
本来「魂の位」 が違うために同じ 世界に存在することのない 「御使」 =天使が、人間の位に落ちてきてし 、まったために起きた、人間の「外目見」 と「中身」が入れ替わってしまう現 象。世界中がその影響にあること また、中途半選ながら天使の召映と も言える現象を起こしていることか らも、大規模な術式であると予想さ れる。影響から送れているのは、 「幻 「想殺し (イマジンプレイカー) を持 つ上条や、結界によって不完全ながら 瀬れている土御門たちのみである。