To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - Touma's Boogaloo Edition

[Paxton]

schizophrenics

 

[fiamma]

Honestly, among all the sites I'm active on in different countries, I'm very surprised that only some people in the Western sphere underestimate the Magic Gods. (lol)

If the Magic Gods were really obsolete entities as they claim, would Kamachi consistently mention them in both GT and NT even now, over 10 years after their introduction?

Let's think about who the first point of comparison is whenever a new, most powerful spell appears - Coronzon's ultimate technique, the Flaming Sword, and Alice's Bridging spell.

He even clearly stated in the afterword of GT6 that all the Transcendents were wiped out, probably to prevent issues like this from arising.

It seems like our conversation is not meshing well and is running too much on parallel tracks

 

[Paxton]

But 1=10: Neophyte
and 10=1: Ipsissimus
...(Reads more)
Who tf invented this system
View attachment 1366

isn't this just Malkuth corresponding to Keter or w/e that was

 

[Mr.OMG]

However, that tranquility was short-lived.
From the 'Hidden Phase', a place beyond all the 'Phases' existing in the world, separated by a thin sheet of paper, the true 'Gremlin', the complete 'Magic Gods', appeared.

yes here

By the way, could you attach a picture of the original text for me?
I think I've briefly forgotten where it came from.
I remember it being a promotional description.

But 1=10: Neophyte
and 10=1: Ipsissimus
...(Reads more)
Who tf invented this system
View attachment 1366

I got confused

 

[Paxton]

Honestly, among all the sites I'm active on in different countries, I'm very surprised that only some people in the Western sphere underestimate the Magic Gods. (lol)

If the Magic Gods were really obsolete entities as they claim, would Kamachi consistently mention them in both GT and NT even now, over 10 years after their introduction?

Let's think about who the first point of comparison is whenever a new, most powerful spell appears - Coronzon's ultimate technique, the Flaming Sword, and Alice's Bridging spell.

He even clearly stated in the afterword of GT6 that all the Transcendents were wiped out, probably to prevent issues like this from arising.

It seems like our conversation is not meshing well and is running too much on parallel tracks

No one actually thinks they're fodder though?

They're still top/god tiers, but so are other characters, via scaling to or above them.

 

[fiamma]

But 1=10: Neophyte
and 10=1: Ipsissimus
...(Reads more)
Who tf invented this system
View attachment 1366

Magic Gods cannot be placed into a normally system distinguished by Isis, Osiris, and Horus.

They are entities that have derailed, not having ascended to the Seat of God through normal means.

As a result, they obtained immense power in an immature state.

Put simply, they are cheat users in Game.

 

[fiamma]

I got confused

thanks bro

 

[Paxton]

Magic Gods cannot be placed into a normally system distinguished by Isis, Osiris, and Horus.

They are entities that have derailed, not having ascended to the Seat of God through normal means.

As a result, they obtained immense power in an immature state.

Put simply, they are cheat users in Game.

yeah, they've cheated their way into Keter (and didn't ascend through the proper means)

like I've said before

 

[Paxton]

they're not "human", but they're not a properly ascended/ higher being

basically a limbo state of sorts

the fact that they're an improper evolution of the human soul alone should tell you that there are beings above them

 

[fiamma]

No one actually thinks they're fodder though?

They're still top/god tiers, but so are other characters, via scaling to or above them.

You're right, the one who has shown beyond that by utilizing everything is Aleister.
The one portrayed as being on par with him is Alice.

I'm not saying that other characters can't be on the same level as the Magic Gods.
It's just that even those two, at the point where they were perfectly killed by Othinus, the weakest of the Magic Gods, can be considered equal and conditionally superior, but I'm talking about establishing a one-sided superiority relationship where Alice is definitely stronger than Othinus, or Aleister can unconditionally kill Magic Gods in any situation, completely ignoring the Magic Gods' own accomplishments.

Their battles always vary depending on the situation and preparation.

The only exceptions are regular Transcendents of the BBC.
No matter what happens, they can "never" reach the level of Magic Gods.

I've explained this a lot and provided a proper interpretation above.

 

[Paxton]

You're right, the one who has shown beyond that by utilizing everything is Aleister.
The one portrayed as being on par with him is Alice.

I'm not saying that other characters can't be on the same level as the Magic Gods.
It's just that even those two, at the point where they were perfectly killed by Othinus, the weakest of the Magic Gods, can be considered equal and conditionally superior, but I'm talking about establishing a one-sided superiority relationship where Alice is definitely stronger than Othinus, or Aleister can unconditionally kill Magic Gods in any situation, completely ignoring the Magic Gods' own accomplishments.

Their battles always vary depending on the situation and preparation.

The only exceptions are regular Transcendents of the BBC.
No matter what happens, they can "never" reach the level of Magic Gods.

I've explained this a lot and provided a proper interpretation above.

If the accomplishments of Magic Gods were that big of a deal on a cosmic scale there wouldn't be positions above them.

Nor would there be things that they cannot do.

Nor would there be gaps in their knowledge.


Even Othinus herself, a former Magic God, admits inferiority to a magician like Anna Sprengel and a being like Aiwass.
And the narration directly states she wields power GREATER than that of a god.

 

[fiamma]

Moreover, Alice possesses superior versions of the spells used by all the regular Transcendents of the BBC.

After all, the Transcendents of the BBC are nothing more than custom versions that have been modified to their liking, making Alice's abilities easier for them to use.

Do you really think that the ragtag bunch who abandon even their magic names and rely on others, claiming it's too much for them, have the intellect to come up with the grandiose spell of the "BBC" group wearing god, without any hints at all? ...In other words, the regular "Transcendents" are just customizations that make the details of Alice (Another Bible), an open source, easy to use by modifying it to their individual tastes.

This is the decisive reason why I look down on the Transcendents.

Do you really think beings that are essentially similar to the Sisters, created with the click of a button, are truly on the level of Magic Gods?

Since when did the name "Magic God" become so cheap?

 

[Paxton]

I mean if they're literally using a fraction of Alice's power and each of them in Risk 4 still have the destructive power to kill a Magic God..

That kind of puts the idea of Alice being literally Othinus level in question, no?

Even Magic Gods can't kill other Magic Gods.

“Magic Gods are those who pursued magic to the point of no longer being human. But these Golden people have remained human while using spells that incorporate even the power of Magic Gods. But it isn’t a case of one side walking all over the other. It’s a complex mess of mutual deception and betrayal. You could say whoever lets their guard down just a little will be consumed.”

Was it Mathers who had said the Secret Chiefs had the physical appearance of those who had drunk the Elixir of Life?
They were a similar yet different sort of being from the Magic Gods.
They were experts with superhuman skill.
Some might call them the people who guided humanity from the shadows while giving approval for the establishment and management of all magic cabals…but that might be trusting Westcott’s claims a little too much.
Technically, he had never said the Secret Chiefs were Rosicrucian experts, but the Golden cabal had undeniably been focused on the Rosen. After all (according to Westcott), it was the Rosicrucians who had given permission for their magic cabal to be established, so the Golden only existed to promote the Rosen.
If the Rosen turned out to be frauds, then their own reputation would take a hit as well.
However, Anna Sprengel was not actually a Secret Chief.
She was something like a priestess capable of contacting them at will.
Comparing Aiwass with Othinus might help clarify the difference between Secret Chiefs and Magic Gods.
“There’s no point in going to the trouble of becoming a Secret Chief when you can set up a position for yourself that lets you draw on their power.
Those transcendent beings are like credit cards.”

These quotes pretty much exemplify what I've been trying to say about the dynamics of Magic Gods vs non-Magic Gods, in a general sense at least.


It's a quantity (power) vs quality (purity/skill) sort of situation, basically.

 

[fiamma]

I mean if they're literally using a fraction of Alice's power and each of them in Risk 4 still have the destructive power to kill a Magic God..

That kind of puts the idea of Alice being literally Othinus level in question, no?

Even Magic Gods can't kill other Magic Gods.

This itself is proof that you've completely misunderstood that afterword.

With Risk 4, it's absolutely impossible to kill the Magic Gods.

Of course, since it's ambiguous in the afterword whether the BBC's secret weapon refers to Risk 4 or Alice herself, we need to look at other main texts together.

But no matter how much you underestimate the Magic Gods, trying to kill them with the power of just a single universe?

The only exception is Aradia's infinite amplification, but do you seriously think that's feasible in a real combat situation? If that could be achieved instantly, Aradia should be able to kill all the Transcendents in a single breath, even if Alice is an exception.

And you keep ignoring the mention that Alice's Bridging and the Magic Gods' Phase manipulation are on the same level.

The world's reference point.
Therefore, something that negates all illusions.
Conversely, it has no effect on beings that distort the reference point itself. For example, even the infinite worlds created by Othinus wouldn't break just by touching them with the right hand.
Alice pierces through the world on the same level.
It's just that she hasn't done so yet.

Even Coronzon's Flaming Sword, which has the same destructive power as Othinus' Gungnir, can be blocked by Imagine Breaker if it doesn't have substance. (This is limited to destructive power, as the powerful phase manipulation isn't the only thing about it.)

Similarly, Risk 4 can be easily erased with Imagine Breaker.

Currently, the only ones stated to be completely beyond what Imagine Breaker can handle, despite being Supernatural ability, are Alice and the Magic Gods who distort the reference point itself.

Also, where exactly does it say that Othinus herself is inferior to Anna and Aiwass?

If you argue based on knowledge, I've already explained:

The knowledge of 103,000 volumes alone is not enough to become a Magic God.

The knowledge Index possesses is only up to the point of becoming a Magic God, not the knowledge after becoming one.

This is confirmed by her inability to analyze Nephthys' magic in NT14 and properly measure Othinus' power in NT10.

Similarly, Alice's Bridging spell cannot be overturned by Index's knowledge either.

 

[Paxton]

This itself is proof that you've completely misunderstood that afterword.

With Risk 4, it's absolutely impossible to kill the Magic Gods.

Of course, since it's ambiguous in the afterword whether the BBC's secret weapon refers to Risk 4 or Alice herself, we need to look at other main texts together.

But no matter how much you underestimate the Magic Gods, trying to kill them with the power of just a single universe?

The only exception is Aradia's infinite amplification, but do you seriously think that's feasible in a real combat situation? If that could be achieved instantly, Aradia should be able to kill all the Transcendents in a single breath, even if Alice is an exception.

And you keep ignoring the mention that Alice's Bridging and the Magic Gods' Phase manipulation are on the same level.

The world's reference point.
Therefore, something that negates all illusions.
Conversely, it has no effect on beings that distort the reference point itself. For example, even the infinite worlds created by Othinus wouldn't break just by touching them with the right hand.
Alice pierces through the world on the same level.
It's just that she hasn't done so yet.

Even Coronzon's Flaming Sword, which has the same destructive power as Othinus' Gungnir, can be blocked by Imagine Breaker if it doesn't have substance. (This is limited to destructive power, as the powerful phase manipulation isn't the only thing about it.)

Similarly, Risk 4 can be easily erased with Imagine Breaker.

Currently, the only ones stated to be completely beyond what Imagine Breaker can handle, despite being Supernatural ability, are Alice and the Magic Gods who distort the reference point itself.

Also, where exactly does it say that Othinus herself is inferior to Anna and Aiwass?

If you argue based on knowledge, I've already explained:

The knowledge of 103,000 volumes alone is not enough to become a Magic God.

The knowledge Index possesses is only up to the point of becoming a Magic God, not the knowledge after becoming one.

This is confirmed by her inability to analyze Nephthys' magic in NT14 and properly measure Othinus' power in NT10.

Similarly, Alice's Bridging spell cannot be overturned by Index's knowledge either.

It's Risk 4.
Alice isn't a convenient tool for them to use outside of what they already borrow from her anyway.

That quote doesn't prove Othinus affects the Pure World, just that Alice also affects the "world" to at least the same degree that Othinus does.
Which like, no shit.
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that Magic Gods affect the Pure World from.




Flaming;Sword is only blocked by Imagine Breaker after Coronzon loses her vessel and gets severely weakened.
And what happens when she has her vessel? Touma's arm gets turned into fucking salsa after trying to block it, with Othinus even specifically saying "the world's reference point ISN'T ENOUGH to negate it".

For something that's supposedly "equal" to Gungnir, it sure did do a lot more damage to his arm than Gungnir did.
Not the point you want to bring up tbh.


Magic Gods not being negated by Imagine Breaker while Risk 4 is has literally nothing to do with power.
Imagine Breaker has exceptions as to what it finds supernatural, which is uh, kind of obvious, as you already know.



Nope, it wasn't just a matter of knowledge (which is literally power in this series anyway).

Her will was over.
The Rosicrucian magic cabal had hidden in the shadows of history. No one knew what exactly R&C Occultics was, even as it chose to unilaterally influence the entire world.
And it was all controlled by Anna Sprengel, who stepped on Secret Chief Aiwass and selfishly wielded power greater than a god.

“Didn’t you find it odd?” asked Othinus.
“Anna Sprengel holds a position similar to a priestess, but she actually has complete control of a superior being like Aiwass and has become a legendary magician greater even than a Magic God.
Yet she always travels on foot and directly appears before her enemies. Why?
Sure, you can say she does it for fun or on a whim since she’s the strongest, but I see a simpler theory.”

Both of these are from GT4.

The first is from the narration, and the second is from a former Magic God herself.

 

[fiamma]

then Okay, I'll assume according to your claim that the last resort of the BBCs is each of their risk4.

And I'll point out all the problems that arise from this:

The MGSs can be killed by a mere attack that destroys a single universe.

This completely contradicts NT13's statement that the MGSs can withstand one or two attacks of their own full power even in an unguarded state.

It also conflicts with the point that Aleister said he couldn't defeat the twice-weakened rang-rang with just Blasting Road alone (at that time Aleister could instantly unleash a force 10 times the power of creating a universe if he struck properly).

On the other hand, if we say their last resort is Alice, then no contradictions arise since Alice herself is on the MGS level to begin with.

Even if we assume she somehow defended her way into Othinus' Black Labyrinth, everything had already been destroyed by then, so Alice, who has to connect all the theories, has no way out.

Think carefully about which side is correct.

And unfortunately, due to the OPUS limit message given to me, I can only respond up to here today.

 

[Paxton]

Who said anything about Risk 4 Transcendents only being universal lol

Hell, why would it be a contradiction for Risk 4 Transcendents to be capable of killing (at least) a nerfed Magic God in the first place?
Why can't they just be superior to NT Aleister?

 

[Paxton]

no way, To Aru reference.

 

[Mr.OMG]

no way, To Aru reference.

I'm waiting for the moment when Touma personally punches me in the face

 

[Astaro]

I miss Carissa