To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - Touma's Boogaloo Edition

Mr.OMG

Paramount
Okay and? She still destroyed the phases, hence she would scale above the phase beings inside of them because she killed them, including the archangels.
She not destroying the phases. The Phases aren't destroyed, they're just hidden by another Phase or something. Fact is, the Magical Gods cannot destroy Phases, they can only create new Phases on top of the old ones. Only IB can return energy forms to their original form.
Yeah, yeah, yeah I know about her immortality, I'm just saying that Coronzon can be beaten by even humans, she just can't be killed by them. Also, I will never get why Kamachi would have Coronzon say that she can use her full power in an avatar unlike aiwass only to contradict it later in the same novel.
It is not immortality(although she immortal, because it perceives itself as an enemy of the natural course of the world(entropy)), but an indestructible anchor in the form of a human body that cannot be destroyed (which is why Accelerator had to remove her soul from her body). She cannot be defeated by humans, only detained indefinitely. Even Aleister Crowley himself, who imprisoned Coronzon, admits that humanity has no chance to win, that's why he tried to break the contract between Mathers and Coronzon. And I have already explained to you that an avatar is necessary for normal existence in the human world, without an avatar the soul cannot exist in the material world. With an avatar, Coronzon can use all of his power within the human world (that is, within the rank of the human soul).
 

Cryso Agori

V.I.P. Member
She not destroying the phases. The Phases aren't destroyed, they're just hidden by another Phase or something. Fact is, the Magical Gods cannot destroy Phases, they can only create new Phases on top of the old ones. Only IB can return energy forms to their original form.

“These small fights are such a pain. I think I’ll just end the world.”



Immediately afterwards, everything in the world was truly and seriously destroyed.

“What? Are you saying there’s more?”

“Why are you talking about this on the tiny scale of Tokyo Bay? What I destroyed is not contained to just the small planet known as Earth.”

At the beginning of NT 9 she explicitly destroys everything.

As the lance was fired with tremendous force, the “happy world” was smashed to pieces as if space itself was being torn apart. As a fragment of the world approached with the force of a raging wave, it took on the shape of a giant lance. The walls of all the phases were crushed, transformed into a swirl of deadly weapons resembling sharp shards of glass, and approached their pitiful target as if to swallow him whole.

Everything was ripped up.

The black labyrinth, which had used up all of its possibilities, showed itself.


Magic God Othinus had the ability to create, so she was technically not destroying anything. This may have been a change brought about by adding a new phase into the world. Nevertheless, it was blatantly obvious what the scene before Kamijou’s eyes would produce. It was the same as referring to the utter destruction of a luxurious palace as “creating a pile of rubble”. This was undeniably a torrent of destruction.

She explicitly smashed up all the phases with Gungnir in NT 9

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

This black world was the place not even Magic God Othinus had been able to destroy.

Here's it's explicitly said that the only things that existed after Othinus's destruction was the black world and hidden world.

Your headcanon that she just covered up the phases doesn't exist anywhere in the story or else she wouldn't have needed imagine Breaker to reset everything. And everytime this event is referred to people always say that Othinus destroyed the world.

Again Othinus literally says to touma that she can destroy just that creation is easier.

“Call me a god. And what I have done is simple. I have created new filters and placed them over the world so the world appears to have changed. That is why the world appeared changed to you. This is a lot easier than destroying everything and building it back up every time.

So yes she did destroy heaven including the archangels and whatever other phases and gods there are.

Also

"Magic Gods can't destroy the world"

Bruh are you reading?

“But, High Priest,” cut in a girl’s voice that sounded even younger and also childish. “Miss Zombie’s theory is essentially the same as holding up opposing mirrors, right? By splitting up our power infinitely, we can intentionally weaken ourselves and avoid destroying the world whenever we move an arm or leg.”

“What about it, Niang-Niang?”

“I’m just wondering if the symbol ∞ will really grow weaker when you split it up. I don’t want to smash the world up like stained glass the first step I take. We’re not like Othinus.”

“We’re not the ones this is a real problem for. I just can’t figure out what ‘he’ was thinking by dragging us into the real world in this incomplete state. You could say we’re in a state where we can destroy the world but lack the strength to recreate it afterwards.”

Magic Gods can destroy the world even while nerfed lol.
 
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Mr.OMG

Paramount
Bruh. All of these quotes are unnecessary because one of them explicitly states that the act of destroying all Phases is still the act of creating a new Phase (Othinus, it is easier to change the world once than several times). And the Hidden World is simply separated from everything by a wall, preventing Phases from affecting it.

Did I say that the magic gods cannot destroy the world? I said they can't destroy Phases, but they can destroy the world (Othinus creating a new Phase, and true Magical Gods with their infinite power from the perspective of the material world).
 

Cryso Agori

V.I.P. Member
Bruh. All of these quotes are unnecessary because one of them explicitly states that the act of destroying all Phases is still the act of creating a new Phase (Othinus, it is easier to change the world once than several times).
Yes and? Even if the destruction was caused by the creation of a phase the effect is still the smashing of other all phases. Like I said it's semantics, the end result is something being destroyed not created.

So again Phase Beings such as Gabriel and Vishnu < Magic Gods

And the Hidden World is simply separated from everything by a wall, preventing Phases from affecting it.

No? The Hidden World phase just has special properties unlike other phases.

Did I say that the magic gods cannot destroy the world? I said they can't destroy Phases, but they can destroy the world (Othinus creating a new Phase, and true Magical Gods with their infinite power from the perspective of the material world).

They can destroy phases. This is literally shown in action with Gungnir. For Othinus even if the cause of the destruction is the creation of a new phase the end result is the destruction of every other phase.

Also True Magic Gods don't need to use phase creation to destroy the world, unless you think they create phases by moving an arm or leg.

Same with the nerfed Magic Gods, other than Nepthys (who already used up her phase creation ability against Kamisato) all of them don't have the ability to create phases anymore, yet they can still destroy the world. Which is the universe+phases.

So unless their wrong about their own abilities. Their ability to destroy the world is not something to do with phase creation
 
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Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
Cool as Only My Railgun is, think Sister’s Noise is my favorite overall Railgun S opening. Railgun’s Sisters Arc that went with it was absolutely fire too




Funny how misleading the opening is. Made Mugino seem the main villain and built up a confrontation between her and Touma.
 

Cryso Agori

V.I.P. Member
Also Othinus needing to create phases to destroy is just Touma's speculation.

By what we see she performs and says in the novel it doesn't seem like she actually needs to create phases to destroy.

He speculates that she's creating a phase when she uses Gungnir. But that's never actually confirmed and again the narrative points out that the difference is semantics cause creating a destroyed castle and destroying a castle leads to the same effect, a destroyed castle.

And again Othinus says that she can destroy and remake everything, but that creating phases is easier.

With how Gungnir is described it's more likely that what happened was simply Othinus breaking all the phases and combining the fragments into a spear.

Similarly it's also never said that Othinus created a phase to perform the destruction at the beginning of the novel so it's more likely she simply shattered everything with Gungnir.

It's never said that the black world was created by Othinus either. It's simply what Othinus and Touma saw after the destruction of the universe and all phases.

And with how NT10 explains that the hidden world phase is explicitly a thin membraneous layer at the bottom of the world that Othinus couldn't destroy...

It's more likely that the black world is the surface of the hidden world and Othinus didn't create it, it simply was uncovered after every other thing was destroyed and Othinus and Touma simply assumed it was the 'end' of the world.

As explained in the NT 10 epilogue.
 
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Mr.OMG

Paramount
Yes and? Even if the destruction was caused by the creation of a phase the effect is still the smashing of other all phases. Like I said it's semantics, the end result is something being destroyed not created.
No. This is just layering the new phase on top of the old phase. They are still there and quietly exist. It is like the Thor systems, there is the new Thor who is the god of thunder and lightning, and there is the old Thor who is the god of agriculture. The new system exists on top of the old system, but the old system still exists.
No? The Hidden World phase just has special properties unlike other phases.
(The raw version said that the Hidden World and the Material World were separated by a wall, and Aleister Crowley made a hole in that wall, which caused the Hidden World and the Material World to begin to merge, so that the Magical Gods had to divide their infinite power into infinity, but I don't have the raw version, so don't believe me on that point.)
Also True Magic Gods don't need to use phase creation to destroy the world, unless you think they create phases by moving an arm or leg.

Same with the nerfed Magic Gods, other than Nepthys (who already used up her phase creation ability against Kamisato) all of them don't have the ability to create phases anymore, yet they can still destroy the world. Which is the universe+phases.

So unless their wrong about their own abilities. Their ability to destroy the world is not something to do with phase creation
I've already written that the true magic gods can destroy the universe with their infinite power, so why repeat it?
Also Othinus needing to create phases to destroy is just Touma's speculation.

By what we see she performs and says in the novel it doesn't seem like she actually needs to create phases to destroy.

He speculates that she's creating a phase when she uses Gungnir. But that's never actually confirmed and again the narrative points out that the difference is semantics cause creating a destroyed castle and destroying a castle leads to the same effect, a destroyed castle.

And again Othinus says that she can destroy and remake everything, but that creating phases is easier.

With how Gungnir is described it's more likely that what happened was simply Othinus breaking all the phases and combining the fragments into a spear.

Similarly it's also never said that Othinus created a phase to perform the destruction at the beginning of the novel so it's more likely she simply shattered everything with Gungnir.

It's never said that the black world was created by Othinus either. It's simply what Othinus and Touma saw after the destruction of the universe and all phases.

And with how NT10 explains that the hidden world phase is explicitly a thin membraneous layer at the bottom of the world that Othinus couldn't destroy...

It's more likely that the black world is the surface of the hidden world and Othinus didn't create it, it simply was uncovered after every other thing was destroyed and Othinus and Touma simply assumed it was the 'end' of the world.

As explained in the NT 10 epilogue.
Touma's words are the only explanation in the show, we have no other. And Touma's words Phases not destroying are confirmed when Othinus throws the spear, where the narration practically quotes Touma's words that it is destruction by creation. And the Black World is simply the state of the world when it is destroyed. Destroying the Phases is not easy, Coronzon needed an entire ceremony to destroy all the Phases along with the foundation, and Aleister Crowley's plan to destroy all the Phases is is compared with Fiamma's ceremony, which affected all four worlds. If destroying the Phases were so easy, Aleister Crowley wouldn't have had to summon Aiwass or anything like that. P.s. It's 2 a.m, so I'll answer you later


“Have you ever heard of phases?”

“…?”

“This world was not pure and untouched to begin with. Christian, Buddhist, Celtic, Indian, Shinto, Incan, Aztec, Greek, Roman…and Norse. The various religions have placed layer after layer of various phases over the world like thin veils or filters. There is heaven, hell, the underworld, the Pure Land, Yomi, the abyss, Mount Olympus, the fairy island, Nirai Kanai, Asgard, and many others. At any rate, the world you have seen so far has been viewed through various colors of cellophane.”

“You haven’t destroyed any of those colored glasses.”

As his vision wavered and he was unsure who he was speaking to, Kamijou managed to keep his mouth moving.

“When it comes down to it, you are a person who creates. It may be filled with malice and it may be similar to representing ‘crushing a house’ as ‘creating a pile of rubble’, but it does not change what you are. You are a person who creates.”
 

Cryso Agori

V.I.P. Member
No. This is just layering the new phase on top of the old phase. They are still there and quietly exist. It is like the Thor systems, there is the new Thor who is the god of thunder and lightning, and there is the old Thor who is the god of agriculture. The new system exists on top of the old system, but the old system still exists.
:jerrykek Bro that might be how it works in OMGAru but in canon toaru Othinus's Gungnir literally smashed and shattered all the phases. There is no layering or hidden phases other than the ones we already know like the hidden world and pure world, because everything else didn't fucking exist.

Touma's words are the only explanation in the show, we have no other.

No we do have other sources, namely Othinus and the Magic Gods themselves, common sense would dictate that they have more knowledge of their own abilities than a dude guessin with incomplete information.
Destroying the Phases is not easy, Coronzon needed an entire ceremony to destroy all the Phases along with the foundation, and Aleister Crowley's plan to destroy all the Phases is is compared with Fiamma's ceremony, which affected all four worlds. If destroying the Phases were so easy, Aleister Crowley wouldn't have had to summon Aiwass or anything like that.
It's not, for anyone not on the level of a Magic God.

Magic Gods explicitly are above phases due to literally having the ability to create and destroy them.

Coronzon wanted to destroy everything, including the tree and pure world, not just phases and the universe hence why she needed to do Mo Athair.

Aleister in fact can destroy phases seeing as how it's said that in NT 12 he destroyed the hidden world.

And he needed Aiwass not just to destroy all the phases but to kill the Magic Gods cause they would just create phases to replace the destroyed ones.
 
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Cryso Agori

V.I.P. Member
Most likely the Magic Gods have the ability to both create and destroy.

They can create phases. But also use pure power to destroy them.

There's some overlap since they can create destroyed things.

TMG's can destroy the world with their power even while nerfed and unable to create phases.

Othinus I'm unsure about, but it doesn't matter either way cause the end effect is destruction.
 
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Cryso Agori

V.I.P. Member
So wait, Magic Gods even when nerfed are still multiversal? :mjpls
Maybe. It seems they have their own nuke button but can't use that power for anything else.

Also it doesn't seem like they can like use only 1% of this power.

Like a nuke it's destruction of the entire world or nothing.
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
Maybe. It seems they have their own nuke button but can't use that power for anything else.

Also it doesn't seem like they can like use only 1% of this power.

Like a nuke it's destruction of the entire world or nothing.
:rock
 

Astaro

Resplendent
V.I.P. Member
Depends on the level of nerf. Zombie Spell Nerf their still solidly stronger than Othinus or Crowley

With the Crowley hijack of the previous nerf spell, they lose most of their Magic God abilities (safe for Nephthys who can still make a single Phase) and invulnerability and become limited to about Planet level destruction.

Although never states, by the time Nephthys and Niang-Niang come back, they seem to be roughly back to their Zombie spell nerf levels of power
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
Depends on the level of nerf. Zombie Spell Nerf their still solidly stronger than Othinus or Crowley

With the Crowley hijack of the previous nerf spell, they lose most of their Magic God abilities (safe for Nephthys who can still make a single Phase) and invulnerability and become limited to about Planet level destruction.

Although never states, by the time Nephthys and Niang-Niang come back, they seem to be roughly back to their Zombie spell nerf levels of power
:espurrtf

Where'd you get this from? :hm
 

Paxton

One Sin and Hundreds of Good Deeds
V.I.P. Member
On that note, is it more likely that Magic Gods are still too tough for Aleister to actually kill without Aiwass/the A.A.A. or is the implication that they can just counter Spiritual Tripping/Blasting Rod (somehow)?
 
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