To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - Touma's Boogaloo Edition

[Astaro]

What feats?

Othinus (and true Gremlin who are supposedly above her) can only destroy the surface world (or what's in it), but, as you yourself have admitted, imitations of phase beings can do just that as well.

Nope, Othinus destroyed every Phase, including every Religious Phase she named herself besides the one the Magic Gods were in and debately to Pure World

Who did they fight while nerfed?

Coronzon with her vessel, Aleister, and Accelerator. All more than enough to prove any Transcendent besides Alice and CRC are small fry

Each other while nerfed? Coronzon in her avatar? Accelerator?
All of these characters are literal fodder to the four people you mentioned.

And fodder to True Gremlin at their full power hence why I said at best, it’s up in the air when comparing True Gremlin to them,

If they were stronger than Coronzon in the Abyss they would have acquired the knowledge beyond the Abyss on top of their Magic God stuff.

They clearly don’t need to

Despite all of this, Othinus herself admits inferiority to Anna Sprengel, Aiwass, and other Risk 4 Transcendents by proxy.
The narration of GT6's afterword and the chant of Risk 4 supports this as well.

Othinus sure, not True Gremlin who are quite literally infinitely stronger than her and basically untouchable to the rest of the verse at their best

Clearly, the status of a Magic God isn't all it's chalked up to be, considering that we know positions above it exist and that mere imitations of phase beings can do the same feat of destroying everything in the surface world.

Feats say otherwise

It's almost like knowledge/magical skill matters the most in this series or something.

Which Magic Gods have in spades. Hell, Othinus takes time to mock Transcendents like Aradia for any shortcomings she notices to their magic

 

[Paxton]

Nope, Othinus destroyed every Phase, including every Religious Phase she named herself besides the one the Magic Gods were in and debately to Pure World

Coronzon with her vessel, Aleister, and Accelerator. All more than enough to prove any Transcendent besides Alice and CRC are small fry

And fodder to True Gremlin at their full power hence why I said at best, it’s up in the air when comparing True Gremlin to them,

They clearly don’t need to



Othinus sure, not True Gremlin who are quite literally infinitely stronger than her and basically untouchable to the rest of the verse at their best

Feats say otherwise

Which Magic Gods have in spades. Hell, Othinus takes time to mock Transcendents like Aradia for any shortcomings she notices to their magic

Nope, Magic Gods can't affect the religious phases that don't exist in the surface world.
It's explicitly stated that they can't.


What puts NT Coronzon, Aleister, and Accelerator above Risk 4 Transcendents?


JVA and Kingsford fighting had GT Aleister shitting his pants at the level of magical skill they had.
True Gremlin didn't do that shit against a weaker Aleister.

"True Gremlin are literally untouchable"

Again, a character who's literal fodder to JVA and Kingsford could fight them and hurt them.

What feats?
Destroying the phases in the surface world?
Big deal, phase beings do that shit too.


Othinus mocks the Transcendents because she's overconfident like every other Magic God.
But she also admits inferiority to Secret Chiefs and Anna Sprengel, and the latter is no stronger than the other Transcendents.

 

[Paxton]

every instance of Magic Gods admitting inferiority themselves just doesn't exist to you apparently

even their best "feat" is shit imitations of phase beings can do

 

[Astaro]

Nope, Magic Gods can't affect the religious phases that don't exist in the surface world.
It's explicitly stated that they can't.

It’s explicitly Othinus did destroy all of them.

What puts NT Coronzon, Aleister, and Accelerator above Risk 4 Transcendents?

The fact that their nothing to write home about?

JVA and Kingsford fighting had GT Aleister shitting his pants at the level of magical skill they had.
True Gremlin didn't do that shit against a weaker Aleister.

Because he hates them enough to feel anything else and already had his plan set into motion on how to beat them.

"True Gremlin are literally untouchable"

Again, a character who's literal fodder to JVA and Kingsford could fight them and hurt them.

While nerfed, sure.

What feats?
Destroying the phases in the surface world?
Big deal, phase beings do that shit too.

Lol no they don’t and we’ve gone over this already

Othinus mocks the Transcendents because she's overconfident like every other Magic God.
But she also admits inferiority to Secret Chiefs and Anna Sprengel.

Great for her, she’s been a measuring stick to everything including True Gremlin

 

[Paxton]

It’s explicitly Othinus did destroy all of them.

The fact that their nothing to write home about?

Because he hates them enough to feel anything else and already had his plan set into motion on how to beat them.

While nerfed, sure.

Lol no they don’t.

Great for her, she’s been a measuring stick to everything including True Gremlin

You've ignored all the quotes stating that Magic Gods are limited to the surface world then.

What's so impressive that a weaker Aleister (and thus Coronzon and Accelerator) did that Transcendents who scale to GT Aleister can't do, exactly?



Or true Gremlin are just dogshit in comparison to JVA and Kingsford in terms of magical skill, like Kamachi was clearly trying to demonstrate.
Occam's Razor.

Wrong. Aleister fought them in the Hidden World and destroyed said dimension that was capable of withstanding their full power.
How'd you forget this?

And yes they do, NT10's narration and Othinus herself literally say this.


What's your point, exactly?
Being a measuring stick just means exactly that: Character X is at least as strong as character Y.

That doesn't mean the person who is the measuring stick is stronger or weaker, that depends on the context of the statement.

 

[Paxton]

Aleister's plan after MGs left the Hidden World was just him improvising because at the current way things were going, he didn't have a way to properly manifest Aiwass with his full power just yet.

You can't have Aiwass be stated to be "the treasure meant to overpower the Magic Gods" several times but also claim that he wasn't actually Aleister's main plan and that Aiwass isn't actually that strong.

It makes no sense.

 

[Astaro]

You've ignored all the quotes stating that Magic Gods are limited to the surface world then.

What's so impressive that a weaker Aleister (and thus Coronzon and Accelerator) did that Transcendents who scale to GT Aleister can't do, exactly?



Or true Gremlin are just dogshit in comparison to JVA and Kingsford in terms of magical skill, like Kamachi was clearly trying to demonstrate.
Occam's Razor.

Wrong. Aleister fought them in the Hidden World and destroyed said dimension that was capable of withstanding their full power.
How'd you forget this?

And yes they do, NT10's narration and Othinus herself literally say this.

And why that means nothing at all since maxing out your skills in the surface level let’s you even outright surpass anything else, hence why Othinus destroyed every Phase

What's your point, exactly?

Being a measuring stick just means exactly that: Character X is at least as strong as character Y.

That doesn't mean the person who is the measuring stick is stronger or weaker, that depends on the context of the statement.

Point is claiming someone is superior to Othinus, whose infinitely weaker than any other Magic God doesn’t mean their > the rest of them

 

[Astaro]

Aleister's plan after MGs left the Hidden World was just him improvising because at the current way things were going, he didn't have a way to properly manifest Aiwass with his full power just yet.

You can't have Aiwass be stated to be "the treasure meant to overpower the Magic Gods" several times but also claim that he wasn't actually Aleister's main plan and that Aiwass isn't actually that strong.

It makes no sense.

Citation needed

 

[Paxton]

And why that means nothing at all since maxing out your skills in the surface level let’s you even outright surpass anything else, hence why Othinus destroyed every Phase

Point is claiming someone is superior to Othinus, whose infinitely weaker than any other Magic God doesn’t mean their > the rest of them

So you agree that Magic Gods are limited to affecting the surface world?

And while I would agree that being > Othinus doesn't mean they're > true Gremlin, Anna Sprengel outright uses the full power of Aiwass and is stated to be above Magic Gods in general by the narration several times.

 

[Paxton]

Citation needed

Which part?

The first sentence?

If Aleister could manifest a full power Aiwass he would've literally just done so.
It's common sense.

 

[Astaro]

So you agree that Magic Gods are limited to affecting the surface world?

Nope

And while I would agree that being > Othinus doesn't mean they're > true Gremlin, Anna Sprengel outright uses the full power of Aiwass and is stated to be above Magic Gods in general by the narration several times.

Even that got retconned. Aiwass can put up a better fight against Anna Kingsford then she ever could.

Narration means nothing when feats say otherwise

 

[Astaro]

Which part?

The first sentence?

If Aleister could manifest a full power Aiwass he would've literally just done so.
It's common sense.

Everything. Aiwass’ plan to beat the Magic Gods by destroying their territory to force them to nerf themselves being improvised rather than his goal from the start

 

[Paxton]

Nope

Even that got retconned. Aiwass can put up a better fight against Anna Kingsford then she ever could.

Narration means nothing when feats say otherwise

Magic Gods are never stated to affect the entire cosmology and only have quotes saying otherwise.
Post the quote where it's stated they can.



Lol no? How does he do better?

Kingsford thrashed him.
Anna Sprengel literally backpedals on her initial thought after he loses to her.

“I currently have no countermeasure for Kingsford. Even with the full power of my Secret Chief.”
Aiwass was supposed to be her trump card, but he hadn’t been enough to defeat Kingsford. What would have happened if she confidently used him to escape her human film canister form? The thought sent a small chill down her spine.

What feats of Anna Sprengel contradict the narration?

 

[Paxton]

Seemingly contradicting information does not mean anything got retconned.

 

[Astaro]

Magic Gods are never stated to affect the entire cosmology and only have quotes saying otherwise.
Post the quote where it's stated they can.

Already did last time we went over this: Several quotes saying Othinus destroyed every possible Phase that exists in the verse

Lol no?

Kingsford thrashed him.

What feats of Anna Sprengel contradict the narration?

Aiwass managed to stall her and summoning him was Anna’s trump card against Kingsford, or at least her best answer she had. Stalling is already better compared to how she did the latter speaks for itself

 

[Paxton]

Already did last time we went over this: Several quotes saying Othinus destroyed every possible Phase that exists in the verse

Aiwass managed to stall her and summoning him was Anna’s trump card against Kingsford, or at least her best answer she had. Stalling is already better compared to how she did the latter speaks for itself

Prove she affected anything beyond the surface world.
"World" doesn't mean anything on it's own.


Kingsford is both better than her period and her direct kryptonite, so that's hardly a knock against her to be fair.

 

[Paxton]

The only phases Othinus destroyed were the ones she created.

 

[Astaro]

Prove she affected anything beyond the surface world.

Kingsford is both better than her period and her direct kryptonite, so that's hardly a knock against her to be fair.

Othinus destroying every single Phase with the book saying only a single other one survived

"It may have been wrong to refer to that place as dark. In fact, the word “place” was not entirely accurate either. Non-existent things could not be explained. Nevertheless, a few voices lurked within where no one could interfere.

Othinus and Kamijou Touma had been wrong about one thing.

They had thought that world of darkness had been the full extent of the world. They had assumed that pitch black despair had been the product of destroying everything and leaving nothing at all behind.

But in truth, there had been one more layer. It was as uniform as a thin membrane, it had not even the slightest seam, and it could not be detected or destroyed by anyone, but one last phase had existed.

^ in the same arc where it’s established this includes the Phases for every religion or mythology.

“Have you ever heard of phases?”

“…?”

“This world was not pure and untouched to begin with. Christian, Buddhist, Celtic, Indian, Shinto, Incan, Aztec, Greek, Roman…and Norse. The various religions have placed layer after layer of various phases over the world like thin veils or filters. There is heaven, hell, the underworld, the Pure Land, Yomi, the abyss, Mount Olympus, the fairy island, Nirai Kanai, Asgard, and many others. At any rate, the world you have seen so far has been viewed through various colors of cellophane.”

Anna’s her kryptonite also because she’s that much better skilled. Aiwass is still Anna’s trump card regardless

 

[Paxton]

Othinus destroying every single Phase with the book saying only a single other one survived



^ in the same arc where it’s established this includes the Phases for every religion or mythology.



Anna’s her kryptonite also because she’s that much better skilled. Aiwass is still Anna’s trump card regardless

How do you know Othinus is referring to the surface world in the latter quote?
Or, hell, that the religious phases have to be in the surface world to affect it?



The religious phases can't be in the surface world.
There's too many quotes that support this.



Qliphah and Coronzon both saying that Magic Gods are limited to the surface world, the narration stating that pure elements/religious phases don't exist in the surface world (Mathers, despite being able to fight Magic Gods with prep/rituals at he least, like the other Golden Dawn members, still can't use pure elements, which are referred to as an "ultimate magic" by the narration), mere imitations of religious phase beings being able to replicate a Magic God's destruction, etc, etc.



The fundamental issue is that Magic Gods, despite all their power and phase manipulation, are compared to a bunch of painters limited to one "canvas".

What exactly do you think that canvas is, then? The surface world? The entire Sephiroth?
Not like it matters: they can't create another one.

 

[Astaro]

How do you know Othinus is referring to the surface world in the latter quote?
Or, hell, that the religious phases have to be in the surface world to affect it?

I’m not arguing anything beyond it clearly stated Othinus could destroy every Phase in the verse, did so, and the mythological and religious ones being included as among the phases.

Your the one throwing in further context never insinuated for your headcanon such as Othinus only destroying whatever phases make up the Surface World which is contradictory to what’s described.

The religious phases can't be in the surface world.
There's too many quotes that support this.

Don’t matter. Just because Magic Gods use magic in the Surface World doesn’t mean anything besides them unable to use magic that comes from the other 3 worlds. They clearly can do just fine destroying the 4 worlds though.

Qliphah and Coronzon both saying that Magic Gods are limited to the surface world, the narration stating that pure elements/religious phases don't exist in the surface world (Mathers, despite being able to fight Magic Gods with prep/rituals at he least, like the other Golden Dawn members, still can't use pure elements, which are referred to as an "ultimate magic" by the narration), mere imitations of religious phase beings being able to replicate a Magic God's destruction, etc, etc.

^ Read above. And as proven by Niang-Niang against Coronzon, it’s all a nothing burger to her

The fundamental issue is that Magic Gods, despite all their power and phase manipulation, are compared to a bunch of painters limited to one "canvas".

What exactly do you think that canvas is, then? The surface world? The entire Sephiroth?
Because it ultimately doesn't matter: they can't create another one.

They can create new phases just fine, it just takes more effort