To Aru Majutsu No Index Feats/Discussion/Analysis Thread - Touma's Boogaloo Edition

[Astaro]

Illustractions for the events

Mangaka for the Accelerator idol manga

And art by the mangaka for Dark Matter. Like how they went the extra mile and included Yumiya Rakko and Yobou Banka with outfits for them even when their not present for the event

 

[Astaro]

And we just hit that 100 page milestone, congrats

 

[Astaro]

Name a better pair then Touma and abusing the camera



Rensa firing Misaka’s Railgun is an odd choice since she never used Misaka’s powers. She has her powers stored sure but the novel mentions that using her powers to control electromagnetism would mess with the circuitry of her cyborg body, hence why she didn’t use the Railgun and favored Meltdowner and Dark Matter instead

 

[Cryso Agori]

Hey @Paxton, if you don't mind me asking, what exactly is the surface world supposed to be (i.e how do we know its reaches and limits) and what other worlds are there, other than this so-called surface world (and what are their reaches and limitations)? I'd like to know where you get all this stuff about limitations from (preferably with actual quotes or citations to the LN).

I stg, Kamachi introducing the idea of this surface world/four worlds/whatever stuff and not bothering to actually elaborate on how any of it works might be his worst idea yet, as far as worldbuilding in Toaru is concerned. Like mf just create a standard multiverse or something

The surface world is the universe, "other worlds" are phases that exist around the universe, the four worlds haven't really been explained yet but there probably not phases and something more metaphysical.

 

[Paxton]

The surface world is the universe, "other worlds" are phases that exist around the universe, the four worlds haven't really been explained yet but there probably not phases and something more metaphysical.

The religious phases don't exist around the surface world/universe.

You're right about the Four Worlds being more "metaphysical", as are the religious phases (they're both physical and spiritual if that makes sense).



Anyway, even as early as OT1 and OT4 it's explained.
The Angel Fall arc talks about this stuff pretty much every other chapter.

They're just a way to divide up the cosmology and each "world" is meant for certain beings of a particular soul level.

Assiah is for man, Yetzirah is for "lower angels", Briah is for "higher angels", and Atziluth is the domain of "god" (Ein Sof).

Or something like that.

 

[Paxton]

if you want something that's actually never elaborated on vampires are literally right there for the picking lol

 

[Paxton]

"...Wait, what's that mean? Are you saying those vampires from picture books actually exist?
"Kamijou's brain denied it.
But for all his rejection, the man in front of him was giving off an air that was far too grave.
"Nobody has ever seen a vampire..." Stiyl Magnus sang, as if he was a big ball of confidence,
"...because anyone who does, dies."
"Of course, even I won't believe this blindly. No one has seen one and yet the existence of Deep Blood proves them.
That's the problem. We don't know how strong they are, or how many there are, or where they are.
We don't know anything. And we can't do anything about something we don't understand."
Stiyl repeated like he was singing, but Kamijou couldn't process the word "vampire", so he wasn't really getting the sense that they were real.
(I guess it's like trying to take on unseen terrorists scattered around the world.)
"But for everything we don't know about, there are also unknown possibilities." Stiyl sneered cynically."Kamijou Touma, have you heard of the Sephirothic?
...I suppose you haven't, right?"
"...You know, you're not gonna get on my nerves by saying stuff like that."
"Whatever. Anyways, the Sephirothic Tree depicts the spiritual rank of God, angels, and humans on a hierarchical diagram.
To put it simply, humans can climb up the ranks by training, but at some point, anything past that is unattainable."
"...You're treating me like an idiot, aren't you? What are you trying to say?"
"Is your pride hurt? What I'm trying to say is that there is a height that humans cannot reach, no matter how hard they try.
However, human nature is to want to reach it anyway. Magicians exist precisely because of that. So what should we do?"
Stiyl's cynical grin widened across his face like it was tearing it in half. "It's simple. They just need to borrow the power of something inhuman."

- OT2

The Sephiroth is mentioned, where it's stated to be a tree that divides up existence and depicts the spiritual rank of God, angels, and humans.

It's also mentioned that you can't just ascend it through training, and that you either need to borrow the power of something inhuman (through beings such as Secret Chiefs or Coronzon who guards the Abyss mentioned later on in the story), or to perform the ceremony that Magic Gods perform to essentially cheat their way into Keter (i.e., that's what is referring to in OT1 when they're stated to take one step into the domain of god).

Or just be Kingsford who's practically on the level of an inhumanly skilled being like a Secret Chief lol.

She recognized what she had just heard. Kabbalah had the concept of the Sephirothic Tree.
It was a diagram with ten levels that divided up the positions of humans, angels, and God.
And on that Sephirothic Tree, the crucial position of God was nowhere to be found.
Ain Soph Aur, Ain Soph, Ain.
000, 00, 0.
As God’s territory could not be understood by humans and the concept could not be expressed by humans, it was not shown on the Sephirothic Tree.

- OT3

Ain Soph/Ein Sof is name dropped and is stated to essentially be beyond the Tree of Life/the Sephiroth, since the Sephiroth is the result of God's light emanating "downwards" from Him and creating all of existence.

"...You know what's gonna happen even though you don't know how it works?"
How far away...
By the seashore, he heard the merry noises of Index and the others. It sounded so far away.
"It's simple. Just imagine a giant, unidentified sea monster attacking a city." Tsuchimikado smirked. "The SDF investigates all sorts of things about the monster, but in the end it's still unidentified. What they do know is they need to stop the monster before it causes a lot of casualties. I suppose it's like that, nya? Well, for you, it'll be A-OK if you just put aside your preconceptions of common sense and listen to us like we're telling you the rules to a video game."
"??? I haven't the foggiest idea what your example means."
Kanzaki's petite neck bent in confusion at Tsuchimikado's explanation. (I'm a little surprised that Kanzaki can make such a girly gesture.)"
Let us continue. Angel Fall is related to a concept in Kabbalah of something called the Sephirothic Tree. Have you heard of it?"
"...I don't think so?"
Kamijou actually thought he might have heard it somewhere, but it was only a vague recollection, so he denied it. He had a feeling the magician Stiyl had mentioned it during their fight with the alchemist, but...
"The Sephirothic Tree is basically a ranking chart. It has the ranking of the souls of God, angels, and humans graded on a ten-step pyramid. Just think of it like that."
"To put it bluntly, it's like a map of God's absolute reign that basically says that this territory is for humans and this territory is for God-so don't go coming in all willy-nilly."
"The number of people and the number of angels are all decided beforehand, so normally, a human cannot climb to the status of angel. It goes both ways; an angel also cannot fall to the level of a human."
"Basically, all the ranks are filled to capacity."

- OT4

Angel Fall is, as the name implies, is an event where a being from higher up on the Sephiroth descends into the world of man.
All phase beings have this effect when they're pulled down from the higher worlds into Assiah/ the surface world, as later proven in NT10 with the calamities summoned via Marian's spiritual item Dainsleif.

"The whole 'high' and 'low' here is like that. It's the high or low of the range that humans are able to sense. If it's too high, then you can't detect it. Same if it's too low. Like, if God were right next to you, Kami-yan, you'd never be able to notice it."
Tsuchimikado grinned happily.
"Incidentally, when we say low, we mean things like hell or demons. It's the ultraviolet rays in comparison to infrared light, and low-frequency waves compared to high-frequency ones. They're of opposite phases. They just have different wavelengths, but they're all the same waves.
So normally, if an angel were standing next to a demon, neither of them would realize it.
They would have to interfere with the wavelength in between heaven and hell, or Earth.""Tsuchimikado," objected Kanzaki, astonished.It seemed like she didn't appreciate the analogy to infrared and ultraviolet rays.
"On the other hand, if you shoot infrared rays into an object, it'll heat up, and if you shoot high-frequency waves at glass, it'll smash all over the place, right?
To put it really roughly, divine punishment and miracles and stuff correspond to that, nya.
Heaven may not seem to the untrained eye to have any point of contact with Earth, but depending on the time and place, it can still have effects on Earth.
Even the opposite is possible."Kamijou still didn't understand.
Tsuchimikado continued further. "And so, Kami-yan, in religions that worship an idol like Buddhism or Christianity, the power of God or angels is actually pretty close at hand, ya know."
Kamijou looked suspicious.

- also OT4


Despite not actually being "next" to the world of man/the surface world (as they reside in either Yetzirah or Briah, given later information in NT), the religious phases can still have an effect on it.

They're mostly spiritual/metaphysical even if they are actual "spaces", if that makes sense.

“I’m not sure what you mean by that question. Anyway.” Kanzaki gave a cough. “Because
an angel has been forcibly moved from a higher sefira to a lower one via Angel Fall,
because of the fluctuations it has caused, the four worlds creating the form of the ten
sefira—specifically, Olam Atzilut (the shaping world), Olam Beriah (the creating world),
Olam Yetzira (the formative world), and Olam Asiyah (the physical world)—are being
affected.”

- OT4

Angel Fall (an event where a being from a higher sephirah is moved to a lower one), causes an effect on all of the Four Worlds.

 

[Paxton]

@Hiryuu Does this explain stuff enough?

 

[Hiryuu]

Kamachi DOES elaborate on this stuff for the most part though, people just kind of gloss over when he does explain it

I wouldn't really call it elaboration tbh. Most, if not all, of the times we've seen these terms brought up, they've either been part of a character's ramblings, like these two instances:

Spoiler: Coronzon rambling

I am a demon, but not from the Qliphoth where the forces of evil gather. I am the Great Demon hidden by the holy Sephiroth. I dwell in the same abyss as Da’at. Every number is the same. My right hand contains Nuit of Resurrection. Watch as the possibilities expand and surpass the bounds of the finite. My left hand contains Hadit of Vengeance. The smallest point gathers and concentrates all forces to create a single meaning. Thus, an attack shall be released from the infinite acceleration of the Circle of Ra-Hoor-Khuit and shall appear on the surface layer of this world. Magick: Flaming_Sword. Manifest thyself through descent of the Sephirah and bathe him in thy power."

Spoiler: CRC/JVA rambling

“The secret spell of Rota can be flipped around to make Taro, thus it can be converted into the cards that indicate the 10 spheres and the 22 pathways. Awaken, 78 cards. You are the one and only proper entrance to the light pouring down from beyond the tree – that is, the Ain Soph Aur, Ain Soph, Ain!!”

Or they've had no correlation with the cosmology/a character's scale to it. That is what I refer to by elaboration. It's not that people are ignoring the explanation because they're missing it, but rather, the explanation doesn't really change all that much.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's never once been directly stated in the LN that there is actually a world (as in an actual literal place) beyond that. The best we can do is just assume.

The surface world is the universe, "other worlds" are phases that exist around the universe, the four worlds haven't really been explained yet but there probably not phases and something more metaphysical.

I'm aware of what the phases are and how they exist in relation to the "world". But they're literally not the same thing as this four worlds stuff that Paxton repeatedly keeps referencing. The whole four worlds stuff has only ever been mentioned without further elaboration on how it relates to the cosmology of the series.

if you want something that's actually never elaborated on vampires are literally right there for the picking lol

Lmao I'm not even gonna get started on that

- OT2

The Sephiroth is mentioned, where it's stated to be a tree that divides up existence and depicts the spiritual rank of God, angels, and humans.

It's also mentioned that you can't just ascend it through training, and that you either need to borrow the power of something inhuman (through beings such as Secret Chiefs or Coronzon who guards the Abyss mentioned later on in the story), or to perform the ceremony that Magic Gods perform to essentially cheat their way into Keter (i.e., that's what is referring to in OT1 when they're stated to take one step into the domain of god).

I don't particularly dispute the existence of the Sephiroth or the ranks associated with it. My issue with it is when people try to associate these ranks with actual power, despite the series, as of yet, having not demonstrated that to be the case. As far as I know, and from what has been clarified in the series, the tree is merely a classification of spiritual ranks. At most, what being in one rank over the other gives you is simply esoteric knowledge (or some kind of enlightenment) not available to others. Again, nothing to do with power and capability.

- OT3

Ain Soph/Ein Sof is name dropped and is stated to essentially be beyond the Tree of Life/the Sephiroth, since the Sephiroth is the result of God's light emanating "downwards" from Him and creating all of existence.

Again, this quote you provided highly alludes to it being a case of knowledge and understanding rather than outright power.

- OT4

Angel Fall is, as the name implies, is an event where a being from higher up on the Sephiroth descends into the world of man.
All phase beings have this effect when they're pulled down from the higher worlds into Assiah/ the surface world, as later proven in NT10 with the calamities summoned via Marian's spiritual item Dainsleif.


- also OT4


Despite not actually being "next" to the world of man/the surface world (as they reside in either Yetzirah or Briah, given later information in NT), the religious phases can still have an effect on it.

They're mostly spiritual/metaphysical even if they are actual "spaces", if that makes sense.

You're conflating two things here. The high and low explanation was explicitly referring to phases and how they essentially exist at different frequencies with the current phase, and how because of this, people cannot normally detect them. Heaven and hell are phases too, hence the explanation. This doesn't really have anything to do with the Sephiroth or the four worlds.

- OT4

Angel Fall (an event where a being from a higher sephirah is moved to a lower one), causes an effect on all of the Four Worlds.

I will admit, this is the closest thing to an actual "explanation" regarding cosmology I've seen in relation to the four worlds. But even still, just listing them like that without any further info is rather vague, and doesn't really tell one all that much. Angels exist in a higher Sephira, and? What exactly is that supposed to mean for them, other than their souls are just ranked higher? The very fact that a mere human can forcibly lower the rank of an angel who is supposedly meant to be in an untouchable transcendent tier above them should ring major alarm bells and tell you that these ranks don't really have all that much to do with power.

 

[Paxton]

Knowledge IS power in this series though

and how does a manifestation of a higher being destroying the surface world not correlate to power

 

[Hiryuu]

Knowledge IS power in this series though

and how does a manifestation of a higher being destroying the surface world not correlate to power

Symbolically sure, but not quite literally.

 

[Paxton]

The quotes you bring up from JVA and Coronzon aren't even rambling, they're part of the chant to use the spell they're utilizing.


It's not just meaningless fluff: it's all literal. There are no pointless parts of a spell's chant.

 

[Paxton]

It should be noted that Gabriel being brought down from Heaven during Angel Fall (and other similar events) is explicitly supposed to not be possible, and is only possible because of the distortion of the laws of the world that occurred many years before the story began.

So yes, "a mere human forcibly lowering the rank of an angel" does seem to imply something's wrong if higher level beings are supposed to be untouchable to mere humans/not be brought down to the lower world of man.

Because something IS wrong with the world at it's core to enable that to happen.


And it's not like Angel Fall or WW3 Gabriel were remotely at their full strength even then.
A full power phase being (much like a full power Magic God) existing in the surface world is a general impossibility, as they'd either destroy it by entering it or they'd dissipate due to being roaming energy.

 

[Mr.OMG]

After all, god had "expelled" Adam and Eve into the outside world for their sin, so life here was meant as a punishment. In that case, it was best to assume most of the world created by god was made to be unpleasant for humans. And the realm beyond the physical world would be even less pleasant. That was not a line humanity should cross before the last judgment.

 

[Hiryuu]

It should be noted that Gabriel being brought down from Heaven during Angel Fall (and other similar events) is explicitly supposed to not be possible, and is only possible because of the distortion of the laws of the world that occurred many years before the story began.

So yes, "a mere human forcibly lowering the rank of an angel" does seem to imply something's wrong if higher level beings are supposed to be untouchable to mere humans/not be brought down to the lower world of man.

Because something IS wrong with the world at it's core to enable that to happen.

Fair enough.

And it's not like Angel Fall or WW3 Gabriel were remotely at their full strength even then.
A full power phase being (much like a full power Magic God) existing in the surface world is a general impossibility, as they'd either destroy it by entering it or they'd dissipate due to being roaming energy.

They'd destroy the current phase at full power, most likely yes (from what's been stated). But I fail to see how that equates to them destroying this so-called surface world, seeing as the phase that they reside in (heaven) is literally a part of the "surface world". Either heaven isn't a part of the surface world, in which case what Othinus destroyed was way beyond the surface world, or angels can't actually destroy the whole surface world just by materializing at full power.

 

[Paxton]

Fair enough.


They'd destroy the current phase at full power, most likely yes (from what's been stated). But I fail to see how that equates to them destroying this so-called surface world, seeing as the phase that they reside in (heaven) is literally a part of the "surface world". Either heaven isn't a part of the surface world, in which case what Othinus destroyed was way beyond the surface world, or angels can't actually destroy the whole surface world just by materializing at full power.

It's not part of the surface world. The quotes in the Angel Fall arc specifically say that it's being brought down from a higher sephirah.


And I guess I should have been more specific: they don't actually destroy Assiah, but rather what's within Assiah (i.e. whatever phases exist there).

 

[Paxton]

Accelerator vs Makima

How far is the range on that teleport? interdimensional

vsbattles.com

She thinks and you are under her control.she also can control people by simply meeting them.no projectile,no energy,no vectors.

Also shouldn't makima mind hax be layered since she can control your who has resistance to mind hax?

yeah, nice positive claim

now back it up

 

[Cryso Agori]

Accelerator vs Makima

How far is the range on that teleport? interdimensional

vsbattles.com

yeah, nice positive claim

now back it up

Her control is conceptual, as long as she thinks you're weaker than her she can control you. So yeah if she ever manages to defeat Accel she will control him.

Problem is assuming she can control everyone she meets even when she doesn't know them, not that her ability can't work on him.

 

[Paxton]

Angel immunity

 

[Astaro]

And we got new illustrations out. They just show off the new characters so no real spoiling there

With all the Blue Archive Haimura’s been playing based on his recent fanart, can see the influence of that game with these new girls.

Beige haired girl with blue ribbons in particular is a dead give away for Asuna Ichinose